LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > Swiss Lugers

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 04-11-2009, 02:33 PM   #1
Guisan
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 112
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default Swiss Parabellum parts compatibility...

From the 1942 Zimmerman's book...





- means "compatibel to"
X means "not with this model"
[empty] means "special to this model"



Guisan.
__________________
Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets.
No surrender. Fight to the death.
--Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

Last edited by Guisan; 04-12-2009 at 05:53 AM.
Guisan is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Guisan for your post:
Unread 04-11-2009, 05:22 PM   #2
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,988
Thanks: 1,009
Thanked 3,703 Times in 1,145 Posts
Default

Guisan, thanks.

Quite helpful. I'm looking at the technical differences between the Swiss versions and the post war Mauser Parabellum, so this is quite handy.

What additional research has shown is that the Swiss 06/29 has a number of perculiarities that makes large parts of it incompatible with the earlier 1906 models. For some obscure reason, the Swiss have modified the shape of the grip frame ears, so that additional modification of the barrel/receiver combo was needed and that the modification also effectively blocked the possibility of easily changing the calibre from 7,65 to 9mm on the later Swiss 02/29 models.

Something that was built into the design of the normal 1906 pattern was replaced by a solution that created more problems than it solved. I wonder why...
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2009, 06:17 PM   #3
Edward Tinker
Super Moderator
Eternal Lifer
LugerForum
Patron
 
Edward Tinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North of Spokane, WA
Posts: 15,885
Thanks: 1,972
Thanked 4,465 Times in 2,063 Posts
Default

I am guessing that these are the incompatable items...

ed
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Edward Tinker; 10-26-2016 at 09:37 PM.
Edward Tinker is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-11-2009, 06:26 PM   #4
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,988
Thanks: 1,009
Thanked 3,703 Times in 1,145 Posts
Default

Ed, the small parts can be interchanged without problems. Even the complete toggles just slip into place. Same goes for the Mauser Parabellum, really. I've even put MP parts on a P08 and vice versa.

The main problems are with the barrel/receiver combination and the frames. An 06/29 Frame will work with an 06/29 Barrel/receiver combo, but not with much else

postscript:

It may be a fun test for someone with the parts at hand:

-Assemble a 1906 Swiss barrel/receiver in .30 luger with an 06/29 frame: Test it.
-Assemble a DWM 1906 or 08 style barrel/receiver combo and test it using an 06/29 frame.
-Repeat with several barrel lengths.

Mauser found problems with the following combinations:
-06/29 toggle ramp combined with 10cm .30 luger barrel.
-06/29 toggle ramp with 15cm / 10cm 9mm barrel.

That is why the initial Mauser Parabellum came in .30 luger with a 15cm barrel.

ps: the X on Guisans scans means 'not available'. I guess that the person who compiled the list had no data available for those particular parts. Rough translation of the header:

Exchangeability of the parts of the three Swiss Army Pistol Models 1929, 1906, 1900.
Table:

- = can be exchanged/swapped.
blank = Cannot be exchanged/swapped.
X = Not available.
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Vlim for your post:
Unread 04-12-2009, 05:44 AM   #5
Guisan
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 112
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

No those last four are parts only found with the 00 and they were no longer fitted in the later models.
The posting at our own forum is a bit more easy to read...

http://theswissriflesdotcommessagebo...com/topic/6245

58 Sperrhaken translates as Toggle lock
59 Sperrhakenfeder = Toggle lock spring
60 Sperrhakenstift = Toggle lock retaining pin
61 Sperrwiderhaken = Toggle lock detent (catch), assembled to frame


Guisan.
__________________
Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets.
No surrender. Fight to the death.
--Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40

Last edited by Guisan; 04-12-2009 at 04:34 PM.
Guisan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2009, 02:15 PM   #6
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,988
Thanks: 1,009
Thanked 3,703 Times in 1,145 Posts
Default

Makes sense
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2009, 04:30 PM   #7
Guisan
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 112
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

The main reason for the model changes of the 06/29 were in fact the cost, W+F simplified the production process and at the same time they improved the design to get a more reliable pistol.
A 06/24 did some 400 Swiss francs and although the cost got lower during production and ended up at some 225 francs later the economical crisis (yup again!) at that time made W+F to put it's successor in the marked at some 160 francs and they won the order against DWM (BKI) that offered pistols for 132 francs, at that time national production was preferred over foreign also.
In 1934 W+F charged 233 Swiss francs for a 06/29 so that low price they charged at first did not last long.
Fact is that this 06/29 is the most reliable and precise standard issue Parabellum ever made.

Guisan.
__________________
Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets.
No surrender. Fight to the death.
--Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40
Guisan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2009, 05:23 PM   #8
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,988
Thanks: 1,009
Thanked 3,703 Times in 1,145 Posts
Default

Hi,

Yes, I am well aware that the 06/29 was the result of trying to streamline the production, thus reducing te production costs.

But this does not explain why a part of the design was changed, that could not have had much impact on the cost price. Changing the opening curve has no effect on the price, machining is just as expensive, and the change effectively meant that the frame of the 06/29 could not be used 1 on 1 as a spare for the earlier designs, which makes no sense either.

Until a better explanation turns up, I suspect that somewhere along the line, one of the subcontractors (SIG), made a costly mistake during the development of the new frame, resulting in several adjustments to the design and the inability to use the frame design for earliers pistols and 9mm versions. Of course, if it was a design mistake, you'd expect them to cover it up pretty well

Since Mauser 'fixed' the Swiss design issue, I still regard the postwar Mauser Parabellum as the 'ultimate cost effective Parabellum pistol'. I think that, like the myth of German Engineering, Swiss Precision is just that, a myth
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2009, 05:52 PM   #9
Guisan
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 112
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

SIG was no subcontractor here and all the 06/29 producing tools/machines went to Mauser during the 60/70's so they were able to produce their own commemorative model(s).

The less production steps the cheaper the product, that is what the idea behind it was and FYI most of the 06/29 tools, gauges, production machines etc. were bought from Mauser quite recently by a Dutch collector that lives in Belgium...
The 7.65 was more accurate as the 9mm that is why the Swiss never made the change, stopping power was not that important to them.

Guisan.
__________________
Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets.
No surrender. Fight to the death.
--Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40
Guisan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2009, 08:03 PM   #10
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 4,988
Thanks: 1,009
Thanked 3,703 Times in 1,145 Posts
Default

Ehm, Sig was responsible for the production of some Swiss Parabellum parts, including the frame.

Mauser did not get production tooling, but a number of jigs, design drawings and quality control tools and some sample guns. They basically had to reinvent the wheel. I know who bought one set of QQ guages, I was there when they were rediscovered

About the change to 9mm: If the 7,65 was so good (which it was, actually), then why did the Swiss experiment with 9mm rounds in the 1940s and why did they opt for a 9mm follow-up of the Parabellum in 1949? Since SIG was an important Parabellum subcontractor, it's interesting to say the least that they were involved in the P210 as well... Which interestingly enough wasn't a SIG design either.

Still have lots of data to analyze and there are lots of questions waiting to be answered. It came as quite a surprise that the research that went into Mauser's redevelopment of the Parabellum also uncovered some interesting Swiss info as well. I guess the next logical step is to start some experimenting with 06/29 pistols...

Any idea where the W+F archives went after they closed down?
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-13-2009, 04:24 PM   #11
Guisan
User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 112
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Yup looked it up and you are right on that SIG being a subcontractor, it was the same with the K31's.

Accuracy was more important to the Swiss as stopping power, don't forget that they did shoot competions at 50 meters that is why a new 9mm pistol that is less accurate as the former one was hard to introduce there.
That was also the reason that 210's were approved at official matches in as well 7.65 as 9mm, many had an extra barrel and spring that they used with their service pistols.

I think most of the W+F archives to be in the Bundes-archive at Berne and with RUAG now.

Glad to see this section back alive again, it has been silent here for too long.

Guisan.
__________________
Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets.
No surrender. Fight to the death.
--Gen. Henri Guisan, Switzerland, July '40
Guisan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com