Is this right?

Doug · 10-23-2001, 11:40 PM

I came across this on Auction Arms #1931327. It just dosen't look right or is it?? Serial range is off and it lacks the "Germany" import stamp.

Stoeger

Thor · 10-24-2001, 01:49 AM

Doug, Both Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" page 196 and "Luger Variations" page 165 by Harry Jones call this a 1923 Stoeger Luger, a three line variation. Both references are dated (old) but both also say these can be marked "Original Luger......" or "Genuine Luger....." Both say four digit numbers with or without a letter. Both refernces say "Some with Germany" (not all with it). This would indicate a DWM produced Luger not a later Mauser that is similar but in the 400v serial range. The 1923 Stoeger was made in quantity of less than one thousand (Kenyon) and the 1930's Stoeger Mauser quantity was "Perhaps as few as only one hundred". The only reference I can find by Jan Still for a three line variation is the Mauser Stoeger in the "v" serial range. The is possibly a fake or possibly an original. The marking are consistent with Jones and Kenyon which use the words "may" or "may not" a lot which leaves some gray areas. I think I would want to flash that baby with a good mag light and really look at the finish and also the letters to make sure somebody just didnt get a 1920 commercial and engrave the side inscription. I would also like to peek behind the white letter fill to see if they are hidding a possible engraving fraud (yes Bill, I think you made me believe this is a good ploy that fakers might use) ~Thor~

bill m · 10-24-2001, 02:11 AM

Thor · 10-24-2001, 02:14 AM

Darn it Bill, ya got me!! I hate it when that happens!

Hugh · 10-24-2001, 11:17 AM

Thor · 10-24-2001, 11:43 AM

Both Kenyon and Jones say can be with AE or unmarked. ~Thor~

10-25-2001, 11:55 AM

Do you guys or anyone else out there own a for sure Stoeger that you could describe? Has it been authenticated by a notable collector? I think it would be interesting to discover how many variations in markings are known to exist.

Roscoe · 10-25-2001, 07:35 PM

I was at the Cabela's store in Owatonna, Minnesota a couple weeks ago and they had a luger similar to the one described here. They were advertising it as an American Eagle Luger. Condition was 95% overall. Asking price was $2375 I think. It was marked with the "A.F.Stoeger Inc New York", but not the "Original Luger...". I don't remember seeing "AE" on the chamber. It appeared to be all matching including the wood bottomed mag. I don't remember the serial number offhand. Price seems a bit steep, compared to the one from AA, which I would say from the picture is in comparable shape to the one I saw. I may be going there this weekend on my way to Iowa to pheasant hunt. Is it worth my time to stop and haggle with them? What else should I look for on the gun? Why would they advertise it as an American Eagle? Any comments would be appreciated. Roscoe

R

Johnny Peppers · 10-25-2001, 07:57 PM

Roscoe,

Just my opinion, but before you jump off into variations such as the Stoegers you had better do you homework. There are many many fakes of these pistols. I would find out if Cabelas would guarantee the authenticity of the pistol with a money back guarantee if not correct.

Roscoe · 10-25-2001, 08:04 PM

You're right. I do need to do more research. I'm a greenhorn. Only own 2 lugers. But, the way guys were talking about these (Stoeger Lugers), I thought I should consider pursuing it. Thought maybe it was a rare opportunity at a rare gun. I'll try to examine it again when I head south tomorrow, make some notes, and see what you experts can tell me. Any idea why they would advertise this one as an American Eagle Luger? Maybe they don't know what they have? Roscoe

10-25-2001, 10:41 PM

Touche' Mr. Buchanan, sounds like you could be a curator of a Stoeger or two yourself.

10-25-2001, 11:49 PM

Yep---I got one. Had it several years. Looks good to me and price was right. But then again--I don't have proof whether it came from Stoeger or from Hermann Lugerfakenwerk in Bayone NJ. If I posted a picture I'll bet vote would be at least 25% for Hermann.

bill m · 10-26-2001, 01:18 AM

Hi,

The American Eagle has feathers and stars that are not the same as on a real example. That is one place to examine.

John Sabato · 10-26-2001, 10:41 AM

with the previous photo.

Our opinions really don't count unless one of us is going to buy it!

Really, I would like to see a close up of the "A.F. Stoeger" stamp if it is not too much trouble...

thanks,

-John

10-26-2001, 10:47 AM

That is interesting. How many feathers and stars on a 1900 or 1906 AE. How many on a Stoeger AE? How many arrows should the Eagle be holding? I have researched most of the major Luger books and cannot find any reference to difference in the Eagles. Could you point us to a reference on the subject?

John Sabato · 10-26-2001, 12:23 PM

Thor

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BillsEagle.jpg

John Sabato · 10-26-2001, 12:59 PM

I'll bet it will be a beauty when you have worked your magic on it! I can't wait to see it. How about some progress photos along the way if you have time... I would bet that all the guys & gals here (especially the newbies) wouldn't mind seeing some photos at each stage of the re-work...

-John

Thor · 10-26-2001, 01:08 PM

Yep, this is Bill Stanley's 1906 AE I am working on today! Shipped Luke Smithwick's 6" Shooter yesterday to him. Notice in the attached photo before the bluing was stripped that the reciever has an adjacent ding on it! I dont really have the time to do photos right now! I have had the flu for two weeks now and trying to get enough work done to pay the bills yanno! ~Thor~

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSCN0007(4).JPG

10-26-2001, 01:24 PM

Ok--thanks for the info. I don't have the expertise to post a photo at this time anyway. My Stoeger does not have inscription on the rail. Mine looks like one in Lugers at Random, page 197, 6'bl.

10-24-2001, 01:49 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Is this right? (WAY TO LONG) Doug, Both Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" page 196 and "Luger Variations" page 165 by Harry Jones call this a 1923 Stoeger Luger, a three line variation. Both references are dated (old) but both also say these can be marked "Original Luger......" or "Genuine Luger....." Both say four digit numbers with or without a letter. Both refernces say "Some with Germany" (not all with it). This would indicate a DWM produced Luger not a later Mauser that is similar but in the 400v serial range. The 1923 Stoeger was made in quantity of less than one thousand (Kenyon) and the 1930's Stoeger Mauser quantity was "Perhaps as few as only one hundred". The only reference I can find by Jan Still for a three line variation is the Mauser Stoeger in the "v" serial range. The is possibly a fake or possibly an original. The marking are consistent with Jones and Kenyon which use the words "may" or "may not" a lot which leaves some gray areas. I think I would want to flash that baby with a good mag light and really look at the finish and also the letters to make sure somebody just didnt get a 1920 commercial and engrave the side inscription. I would also like to peek behind the white letter fill to see if they are hidding a possible engraving fraud (yes Bill, I think you made me believe this is a good ploy that fakers might use) ~Thor~

10-24-2001, 02:11 AM	#3
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Glad to help! (EOM)

10-24-2001, 02:14 AM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Glad to help! Darn it Bill, ya got me!! I hate it when that happens!

10-24-2001, 11:17 AM	#5
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	I thought Stoeger Lugers had an AE over the chamber?

10-24-2001, 11:43 AM	#6
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: I thought Stoeger Lugers had an AE over the chamber? Both Kenyon and Jones say can be with AE or unmarked. ~Thor~

10-23-2001, 11:40 PM	#1
Doug User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: USA Posts: 168 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is this right? I came across this on Auction Arms #1931327. It just dosen't look right or is it?? Serial range is off and it lacks the "Germany" import stamp. Stoeger

10-25-2001, 11:55 AM	#7
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Is this right? (WAY TO LONG) Do you guys or anyone else out there own a for sure Stoeger that you could describe? Has it been authenticated by a notable collector? I think it would be interesting to discover how many variations in markings are known to exist.

10-25-2001, 07:35 PM	#8
Roscoe User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Ramsey, Minnesota Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: I thought Stoeger Lugers had an AE over the chamber? I was at the Cabela's store in Owatonna, Minnesota a couple weeks ago and they had a luger similar to the one described here. They were advertising it as an American Eagle Luger. Condition was 95% overall. Asking price was $2375 I think. It was marked with the "A.F.Stoeger Inc New York", but not the "Original Luger...". I don't remember seeing "AE" on the chamber. It appeared to be all matching including the wood bottomed mag. I don't remember the serial number offhand. Price seems a bit steep, compared to the one from AA, which I would say from the picture is in comparable shape to the one I saw. I may be going there this weekend on my way to Iowa to pheasant hunt. Is it worth my time to stop and haggle with them? What else should I look for on the gun? Why would they advertise it as an American Eagle? Any comments would be appreciated. Roscoe R

10-25-2001, 07:57 PM	#9
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: I thought Stoeger Lugers had an AE over the chamber? Roscoe, Just my opinion, but before you jump off into variations such as the Stoegers you had better do you homework. There are many many fakes of these pistols. I would find out if Cabelas would guarantee the authenticity of the pistol with a money back guarantee if not correct.

10-25-2001, 08:04 PM	#10
Roscoe User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Ramsey, Minnesota Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: I thought Stoeger Lugers had an AE over the chamber? You're right. I do need to do more research. I'm a greenhorn. Only own 2 lugers. But, the way guys were talking about these (Stoeger Lugers), I thought I should consider pursuing it. Thought maybe it was a rare opportunity at a rare gun. I'll try to examine it again when I head south tomorrow, make some notes, and see what you experts can tell me. Any idea why they would advertise this one as an American Eagle Luger? Maybe they don't know what they have? Roscoe

10-25-2001, 10:41 PM	#11
Sam Buscemi Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Is this right? (WAY TO LONG) Touche' Mr. Buchanan, sounds like you could be a curator of a Stoeger or two yourself.

10-25-2001, 11:49 PM	#12
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Is this right? (WAY TO LONG) Yep---I got one. Had it several years. Looks good to me and price was right. But then again--I don't have proof whether it came from Stoeger or from Hermann Lugerfakenwerk in Bayone NJ. If I posted a picture I'll bet vote would be at least 25% for Hermann.

10-26-2001, 01:18 AM	#13
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Is this right? (WAY TO LONG) Hi, The American Eagle has feathers and stars that are not the same as on a real example. That is one place to examine.

10-26-2001, 10:41 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Art, Please do post a photo just for us to be able to compare it with the previous photo. Our opinions really don't count unless one of us is going to buy it! Really, I would like to see a close up of the "A.F. Stoeger" stamp if it is not too much trouble... thanks, -John

10-26-2001, 10:47 AM	#15
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Is this right? (WAY TO LONG) That is interesting. How many feathers and stars on a 1900 or 1906 AE. How many on a Stoeger AE? How many arrows should the Eagle be holding? I have researched most of the major Luger books and cannot find any reference to difference in the Eagles. Could you point us to a reference on the subject?

10-26-2001, 12:23 PM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	The eagle holds 13 arrows (1 for each colony) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: And 13 stars on top!! Thor http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BillsEagle.jpg

10-26-2001, 12:59 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Thanks for the photo Thor! I'll bet it will be a beauty when you have worked your magic on it! I can't wait to see it. How about some progress photos along the way if you have time... I would bet that all the guys & gals here (especially the newbies) wouldn't mind seeing some photos at each stage of the re-work... -John

10-26-2001, 01:08 PM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Prebluing Strip Photo Yep, this is Bill Stanley's 1906 AE I am working on today! Shipped Luke Smithwick's 6" Shooter yesterday to him. Notice in the attached photo before the bluing was stripped that the reciever has an adjacent ding on it! I dont really have the time to do photos right now! I have had the flu for two weeks now and trying to get enough work done to pay the bills yanno! ~Thor~ http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/DSCN0007(4).JPG

10-26-2001, 01:24 PM	#20
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Art, Please do post a photo just for us to be able to compare it Ok--thanks for the info. I don't have the expertise to post a photo at this time anyway. My Stoeger does not have inscription on the rail. Mine looks like one in Lugers at Random, page 197, 6'bl.