WW II Marine Aircrew Sidearms

[sheepherder]

I was visiting the web site of my late boss's Marine Bombing Squadron [VMB-611] and noticed this pic (among many)...

Just an interesting sidenote to the little-known Marine bomber squadrons of WW II...

Web sites of two squadrons (with links to the others)...

http://www.vmb611.com/index.htm

http://vmb612.com/index.html

They flew B-25's, and from the accounts, had some interesting missions...

[sheepherder]

VMB-611's B-25's were used on strafing runs...Lots of Browning M2's on these birds...

[G.T.]

on the top turret! 14 total .50 cals all in one concentrated effort.... bad thing to be on the wrong end of??.... ... even today it'd still be an A$$ kicker!!! Best to all, til...lat'r....GT

[318is_Parabellum]

Awesome pictures, sir!

I remember reading that these B-25's had been modded for ground attack by taking out the glass nose and adding loads of forward firing M2 .50 cal machine guns. It's been a good long while since I've seen a picture of one.

[sheepherder]

Any idea what the revolver is??? I'm guessing a Colt of some kind, based on the grip shape...But 38 or 45??? I have the 1944 edition of the Aircrewman's Gunnery Manual issued to Navy aircrews, and it only lists the M1911A1...

It is a given that the Marines would be issued the worst equipment (and not enough of it) but where did these revolvers come from??? Leftovers from WW I (like the Springfield 03a3's the Marines were issued at the start of WW II)???

The closest match I can find in POTW is the Colt .45 US M1917 in .45ACP loaded by two half-moon clips...

[318is_Parabellum]

Judging by the (full) cartridge loops above the holsters, I would bet that those revolvers are .38specials. I can't quite tell if they are both Colts, or both S&Ws or if they are one of each. I haven't gotten around to acquiring these just yet. So many lovely firearms, so little time and money!!

[lugersrkewl]

U.S. Marine Corps Colt Model 1905 .38 smith?
they had a 1909 model in .45 long colt but the cartridges look like .38 in your pic

[Grantas]

Wonder where all the fired brass from those nose guns ended up. also must have been an interesting feed system.

[alanint]

These are BOTH S&W Victory Model .38 Specials. They are the military issue version of the S&W Model 10. They were issued to Navy and USMC pilots and aircrew and marked US Navy along the left side of the top strap. Army issue models are also out there. You used to find these in mint condition, sometimes still in the box cheaply years ago. Nobody wanted them because they were parked and not deeply blued and had smooth, rather than checkered walnut grips. The trigger, hammer and lanyard loop are all nicely case-hardened.
Today examples in nice shape are usually over $500.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by alanint

These are BOTH S&W Victory Model .38 Specials. They are the military issue version of the S&W Model 10. They were issued to Navy and USMC pilots and aircrew and marked US Navy along the left side of the top strap. Army issue models are also out there. You used to find these in mint condition, sometimes still in the box cheaply years ago. Nobody wanted them because they were parked and not deeply blued and had smooth, rather than checkered walnut grips. The trigger, hammer and lanyard loop are all nicely case-hardened.
Today examples in nice shape are usually over $500.

Interesting to know that.
I assumed they were only given M 1911 A1

[alanint]

Here is a little background. I have owned a number of these and the first one I ever bought in the 1980s was $50!!

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm

If you do find a nice one, my friend Jim Garcia offers a nice reproduction shoulder holster for them.

http://www.garciaaviation.com/51-nav...l-holster.html

[Curly1]

Use as a gunship[edit]Because of the urgent need for hard-hitting strafer aircraft, a version dubbed the B-25G was developed, in which the standard-length transparent nose and the bombardier were replaced by a shorter solid nose containing two fixed .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns and a 75 mm (2.95 in) M4 cannon,[2] one of the largest weapons fitted to an aircraft, similar to the experimental British Mosquito Mk. XVIII, and German Ju 88P heavy cannon carrying aircraft. The cannon was manually loaded and serviced by the navigator, who was able to perform these operations without leaving his crew station just behind the pilot. This was possible due to the shorter nose of the G-model and the length of the M4, which allowed the breech to extend into the navigator's compartment.

The B-25G's successor, the B-25H, had even more firepower. The M4 gun was replaced by the lighter T13E1,[2] designed specifically for the aircraft. The 75 mm (2.95 in) gun fired at a muzzle velocity of 2,362 ft/s (about 720 m/s). Due to its low rate of fire (approximately four rounds could be fired in a single strafing run) and relative ineffectiveness against ground targets, as well as substantial recoil, the 75 mm (2.95 in) gun was sometimes removed from both G and H models and replaced with two additional .50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns as a field modification.[3]

Besides that, the -H normally mounted four fixed forward-firing .50 (12.7 mm) machine guns in the nose, four more fixed ones in forward-firing cheek blisters, two more in the manned dorsal turret, one each in a pair of new waist positions, and a final pair in a new tail gunner's position. Company promotional material bragged the B-25H could "bring to bear 10 machine guns coming and four going, in addition to the 75 mm cannon, a brace of eight rockets and 3,000 lb (1,360 kg) of bombs."[4]

The B-25H also featured a redesigned cockpit area, required by the dorsal turret having been relocated forward to the navigator's compartment - just aft of the cockpit and just ahead of the leading edge wing roots, thus requiring the addition of the waist and tail gun positions - and a heavily modified cockpit designed to be operated by a single pilot, the co-pilot's station and controls deleted, and the seat cut down and used by the navigator/cannoneer, the radio operator being moved to the aft compartment, operating the waist guns.[5] A total of 405 B-25Gs and 1000 B-25Hs were built,[2] the 248 of the latter being used by Navy as PBJ-1H.

The final, and the most built,[2] version of the Mitchell, the B-25J, looked much like the earlier B, C and D, having reverted to the longer, glazed bombardier's nose, but with the -H version's relocated-forward dorsal manned turret. The less-than-successful 75 mm (2.95 in) cannon was deleted. Instead, 800 of this version were built with a solid nose containing eight .50 (12.7 mm) machine guns, while other J-models featured the earlier "greenhouse" style nose containing the bombardier's position.[6]

Regardless of the nose style used, all J-models also included four .50 in (12.7 mm) light-barrel Browning AN/M2 guns in a pair of "fuselage package", flank-mount conformal gun pods each containing two Browning M2s, located directly beneath the pilot's and co-pilot's compartment along the external sides of the cockpit, with the co-pilot's seat and dual flight controls restored to their previous cockpit locations. The solid-nose B-25J variant carried a total of 18 .50 in (12.7 mm) light-barrel AN/M2 Browning M2 machine guns: eight in the nose, four in the flank-mount conformal gun pod packages, two in the dorsal turret, one each in the pair of waist positions, and a pair in the tail - with fourteen of the guns either aimed directly forward, or aimable to fire directly forward for strafing missions. No other main series production bomber of World War II carried as many guns.[6]

The first 555 B-25Js (the B-25J-1-NC production block) were delivered without the fuselage package guns, because it was discovered that muzzle blast from these guns was causing severe stress in the fuselage; this problem was cured with heavier fuselage skin patches. Although later production runs returned these fuselage package guns to the aircraft, they were often removed as a field modification for the same reason.[6] The later B-25J was additionally armed with eight 5 in (130 mm) high-velocity aircraft rockets (HVAR).[2] In all, 4,318 B-25Js were built.

[Olle]

The Victory model can still be had for very reasonable prices, I see them at the shows now and them and the asking prices are usually in the $300-$400 range. I actually bought one for $200 a few months ago, maybe 95% condition and US property stamp on the top strap. I'm just guessing, but I suspect that many of these were issued to staff based in the US. These probably served the whole war in a holster or a desk drawer, and that's why they're usually in good condition.

The USMC issued Victory model is a rare bird though. I don't know how much they go for right now, but I always check for a USMC stamp when I find a Victory model for sale. I'm usually not that lucky, but you never know...

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alanint

Here is a little background.

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/v...and_wesson.htm

Thanks for clearing that up!



I carried a S&W Model 14 [4" bbl, K-frame, adjustable rear sight] in the USAFR from when I enlisted to sometime in the mid-90's [?] when we transitioned to the M9...I was assigned Cargo Carrier duties, and had to purchase a shoulder holster locally as the NSN carried no K-frame revolver holsters that could be hidden...

Our Model 14's were both Parkerized and blued; worn and brand new...The total number for our squadron varied with the manning document, but there was a fairly common shipping of pistols back & forth between our base and the nearest depot [Griffiss AFB NY]. At that time, the air base DOD Police, CATM, and the USAFR used the same weapons, and Base Supply swapped weapons around regularly, so we could never get a good serialized inventory, just a number of individual weapons on-hand.

At one time, I did try to locate a Model 14 like I carried, but all I could find were Model 15's. In the end, I bought a Model 15 and still have it. It's puzzling that S&W would have two model numbers for the same pistol, but my 15 is identical to the 14 I carried...

[alanint]

Originally Posted by Olle

The Victory model can still be had for very reasonable prices, I see them at the shows now and them and the asking prices are usually in the $300-$400 range. I actually bought one for $200 a few months ago, maybe 95% condition and US property stamp on the top strap. I'm just guessing, but I suspect that many of these were issued to staff based in the US. These probably served the whole war in a holster or a desk drawer, and that's why they're usually in good condition.

The USMC issued Victory model is a rare bird though. I don't know how much they go for right now, but I always check for a USMC stamp when I find a Victory model for sale. I'm usually not that lucky, but you never know...

I'm glad to hear they are still reasonably priced in your area. Here in South Florida, dealers price every WW2 military firearm as if it belonged to Eisenhower.

As you point out, these were issued en-mass to factory and warehouse guards, civil defense units and any other conscripted service that needed a sidearm. Most never left the US. That is why they are still available in nice shape. It is a nice WW2 firearm and a good investment for the price.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by alanint

I'm glad to hear they are still reasonably priced in your area. Here in South Florida, dealers price every WW2 military firearm as if it belonged to Eisenhower.

As you point out, these were issued en-mass to factory and warehouse guards, civil defense units and any other conscripted service that needed a sidearm. Most never left the US. That is why they are still available in nice shape. It is a nice WW2 firearm and a good investment for the price.

Just about every one I have seen has been in very good condition, so I kind of suspected that they never saw much action. That might be why the prices are reasonable, being carried by someone guarding a warehouse in Bucksnort, TN is not as glamorous as being used on a battlefield.

I'd consider it a sleeper, anything WWII is going through the roof so I suspect that it's just a matter of time before prices go up on these as well.

[alanint]

I can remember buying S&W and Colt M1917 .45 ACP revolvers for $200 not that long ago.

Look what happened with them in a very short time.

[Lugerdoc]

I recall that both the Marine & Navy pilots aboard the Enterprise during the 1960s in Vietnam were still carrying these in the same type shoulder holster shown above. TH

[roadkill1]

I remember seeing B-25s in Vietnam (both at Pleiku and Tan Son Nhut Air Bases). Could not believe my eyes as I did not know they were still in operation. Also do not know what model(s) they were. I suspect that RVN Air Force flew them??

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by roadkill1

I remember seeing B-25s in Vietnam...

Are you sure they weren't A-26 'Invaders'??? They look alike...