Aaron's "Germany" marked DWM has been added...

[Dok]

to the Owner's Corner. Check out this "unusual" marking.

[Steve]

...looks like it has a Bohler Steel barrel. The 2 digit number following this proof is supposedly the hardness. Steve

[Johnny Peppers]

Stogers sold used Lugers obtained from DWM in addition to the line of 1920 Commercials, and this appears to be an example of one of their used Lugers.

The "halo" around the serial number and the Bohler steel mark is a very good example of what these numbers look like on an original finish rust blued Luger.

Aaron, can you tell if the numbers were struck after the finish was applied?

[Kyrie]

Yup, looks like a 1920 Commercial. An Imperial Luger, refurbished after the War and sold commercially in the US. I can't tell from the photos if any attempt was made to remove the "1914", or if it was repoofed commercially.


The placement of the "Germany" is unusual, but not unheard of. Note the side plate is a possibly a replacement, possibly done at some small shop in Germany (I suspect this because the side plate number is misplaced, and appears to be of a different character than the other similar numbers).


Also, though it's really hard to tell from the photo, does that side plate look like it once had a sear safety? Is this a dip blue or a rust blue? Is this the barrel proofed, and is so how and where?


Congratulations - you have an interesting Weimar Era Luger


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Kyrie,

I certainly won't go so far as to say you are mistaken, but there is absolutely no way that Aaron's pistol can be mistaken for a 1920 Commercial. First it was not numbered into the 1920 Commercial serial number range. The pistol is still in the original rust blue, with the "halos" around the serial numbers that only develop over time in rust blue. The pistol is still carrying it's original military serial numbers, proofs, and acceptance marks. In addition to that, it still has the pitting that no attempt was made to remove. It is plain and simple a used military pistol sold in the United States by one of the firms importing the pistols for sale "as is" or converting them into virtually custom Lugers. The pistols converted into custom order pistols, as in the case of Pacific Arms and others, had all remnants of the original markings removed and were fitted with custom length barrels and sold as new pistols. It would have been hard for anyone to have sold Aaron's pistol as a new pistol, and it appears very apparent that nothing was done to it to try to upgrade it to anything. It is still a 1914 dated P08 with an export mark on it.

The interesting part is the pin in the top of the sideplate. This pin is directly over the trigger lever, and could have been an attempt by some previous owner to modify the trigger in some way. Could you add a picture of the backside of the sideplate?

[Aaron]

The photo showing a pin in the top of the side plate is an optical illusion, as the "pin" is only light reflecting off a pit. There is no doubt that the pistol is rust blued, and beautifully done, at that. I agree that the placement of the numbers "02" on the side plate are unusual in that they are not centered, but after closely examining them with a 20 power magnifier I am convinced that they are from the same dies used elsewhere on the gun. All markings on the gun appear to contain blueing, even the "Germany" stamping. I do not know how to recognize a sear safety, even after consulting several references. The grips are near mint and numbered to the gun, as is the bore and the internal parts, which lead me to believe that the gun left Germany in pristine condition, but was subjected to poor storage conditions later on. OTOH, one would think that a 1914 dated Luger would show some signs of battle use. There is no indication whatever that any attempt was ever made to remove the date or any other markings.

Dok, Sorry that I don't have a camera to add another "GERMANY" marked (on left frame rail just above the TD lever) military, that I just recieved yesterday on consigment. It's an unaltered 1917 dated Navy. I'll post the details in the for sale section.

[Dok]

[Kyrie]

Hi Aaron,


Yup - the lighting on the side plate fooled me! I thought I could see two holes in the top of the side plate, one filled and one still open.


Iâ??ll happily take your word that the â??20â?� on the side plate is identical in form and size to the rest of the â??20â?� markings on the rest of the parts - you have the pistol in your hands and are a better judge than I! That the pistol is rust blued would tend to make me think the pistol was last finished in the 1920â??s, probably in Germany, when it was refurbished prior to export. FWIW, this is one of the characteristics of the 1920 Commercials. Mechanically and cosmetically, the 1920 Commercials were new guns, albeit that they were usually either refurbished Great War pistols or assembled from parts from Great War pistols.


Regarding your comment, â??one would think that a 1914 dated Luger would show some signs of battle useâ?�, Iâ??d just say, â??some signs of issueâ?�. That might be use or just holster wear, but Iâ??d not generally expect a 1914 dated pistol to be in like new condition. Its condition is another factor that makes me think â??1920 Commercial.â?�


In terms of a sear safety, I donâ??t collect Police Lugers and so donâ??t have a sample I can photograph for reference. In essence, a sear safety is a small device that was attached above the side plate to prevent accidental discharges if the pistol was field stripped or reassembled while there was a round in the chamber. I hope eventually someone with a Luger that has a sear safety will post a picture.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Johnny,


My thoughts and comments, â??between the linesâ?�....


>I certainly won't go so far as to say you are mistaken, but there is absolutely

> no way that Aaron's pistol can be mistaken for a 1920 Commercial.


While it is always hazardous to try and read minds, I think what you mean is there is no way Aaronâ??s Luger could be mistaken for (in Jan Stillâ??s nomenclature) an Alphabet DWM. If that is your intent I quite agree


>First it was not numbered into the 1920 Commercial serial number range.


Respectfully, there is no â??1920 Commercial serial number range.â?� See Kenyon et. al. if you have any doubts in this regard. I wonâ??t suggest Jan Stillâ??s works, because for Mr. Still there are no 1920 Commercials.


>The pistol is still in the original rust blue,


Aaron tells us it is rust blued and I have no reason to doubt his observation. As to whether the blue is â??originalâ?�, that is a matter of speculation. I doubt it is the rust blue applied in 1914 as it is shows none of the (at least!) holster wear one would expect of a 1914 dated Luger. Iâ??d speculate the blue is â??originalâ?� to the post-war refurbishment that also likely saw the replacement of the side plate with a new side plate, which was incorrectly numbered.


>with the "halos" around the serial numbers that only develop over time in rust blue.


No offense intended, but â??halosâ?� like this are not dependent on type of blue or upon age. They are the result of the stresses in the steel adjacent to a marking that is struck too hard. This kind of thing is even occasionally encountered in current production firearms.


>The pistol is still carrying it's original military serial numbers, proofs, and

> acceptance marks.


Yes sir, I noticed that


Thatâ??s not unusual on 1920 Commercials. Itâ??s a bit unusual that the markings (and in particular the chamber date) show no signs that any attempt was made to remove them, but thatâ??s not unheard of in a 1920 Commercial.


>In addition to that, it still has the pitting that no attempt was made to remove.


Respectfully, you are assuming the pitting was present when it was blued. There is no evidence this is so, and the pitting may be of relatively recent origin.


> It is plain and simple a used military pistol sold in the United States by one

>of the firms importing the pistols for sale "as is" or converting them into

>virtually custom Lugers.


Not hardly


The pistolâ??s finish and replacement side plate are clear indicators of a refurbishment. That it is also marked â??Germanyâ?� just as clearly indicates it was sold commercially. A 1920 Commercial is a post-war pistol either made from a Great War military Luger with parts replaced as needed, or made up from Great War part parts, and then refinished and marked for commercial sale. The vast majority of 1920 Commercials were completely scrubbed of military markings and reproofed commercially. A significant number of these pistols will show the incompletely removed markings. Some will retain their full military markings and proofs, and will not have commercial proof.


>The pistols converted into custom order pistols, as in the case of Pacific Arms

> and others, had all remnants of the original markings removed and were fitted

> with custom length barrels and sold as new pistols.


Please forgive me for saying so, but this is almost entirely mistaken.


While dealers in Lugers did do special order Lugers, not all unusual Lugers were special order. Pacific Arms in particular is thought to have added barrels in various lengths simply to improve sales in a market flooded with Lugers.


Regarding the complete removal of markings, while this was attempted it was sometimes unsuccessful. I respectfully direct your attention to the Ownerâ??s Corner, where you will find a 1920 Commercial Artillery with an incompletely removed â??1917â?� chamber date. If that is insufficient to persuade you that the removal of markings was not always complete, I then respectfully direct your attention Jan Stillâ??s â??Weimar and Early Nazi Lugersâ?�, page 262. There you will find a Luger described by Mr. Still, thusly:


â??During the 1920â??s this Imperial military Luger had its date and proofs removed from its receiver and the DWM removed from the middle toggle (SOME REMNANTS REMAIN [emphasis added - Kyrie]). A new 7.65 mm caliber 6 inch barrel was added. â??GERMENYâ?� was engraved into the left frame and this Luger was refinished. This Luger retains its original Imperial serial numbers...â?�


>It would have been hard for anyone to have sold Aaron's pistol as a new pistol,

>and it appears very apparent that nothing was done to it to try to upgrade it to

>anything.


Iâ??m afraid you are proceeding from a set of mistaken assumptions - that the pistol would have been represented as new or that a buyer would have been aware it was refurbished. Please remember that we are talking about the 1920â??s. A short while ago I wrote a little piece about how vastly our knowledge of the Luger has increased since the 1950â??s and bemoaning how little we knew in the 1950â??s. No matter how little we knew in the 1950â??s, it was still vastly more than was known in the 1920â??s. Military markings - removed, partially removed, or left intact would have meant nothing to prospective buyers.


>It is still a 1914 dated P08 with an export mark on it.


We agree on at least this much


>The interesting part is the pin in the top of the sideplate. This pin is directly

> over the trigger lever, and could have been an attempt by some previous

> owner to modify the trigger in some way. Could you add a picture of the

> backside of the sideplate?


Yes sir, the photo fooled me too that there was more to the side plate than was really the case


Regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Kyrie,

I'm packing for a gun show right now, but when I return I will read your manifesto at leisure where I can absorb all your opinions. I am really glad you posted some of the information though. I have two old beater G98's that I am going to put out as J.P. Sauer Sporting Rifles.

The lighter side aside, your have your opinion and I have mine. You have no proof of your opinions and I don't either. Whether the message uses 1 inch or 10 inches of the forum, it doesn't make the opinion any more correct. You can subscribe to Kenyon's theory, and I will stick with Jan Still's. The M1 Garand forum over at G&K was shut down for several months because of differences in opinion that never seem to run their natural course. We could keep this one going indefinitely, but I see no good coming of it.