Just Cracked a Rear Toggle!!!

[Sharpsdressed Man]

Fired about 30 rounds today of 124gr FMJ Speer Blazer brass in my 1940 "42" Luger, and the right side knurled portion of the toggle fractured and went awol. Anyone else ever experience this type of metallurgical failure? The gun still functioned fine.

[G.T.]

I've seen about a half dozen cracked toggles in the last 20+ years of repair? Most crack long before seperation, in fact I've only seen cracked ones, never broken off!!! ... I have some replacements for sale, most likely DWM, but they fit and work great... best, til.....lat'r....GT...

[Curly1]

I would suggest you stick to the 115gr WWB

[Sharpsdressed Man]

I've heard that, but wasn't 124gr. standard issue in WWII?

[G.T.]

The enertia devoloped by a certain load is a dependent on several factors, the bullet weight is only one of them? It is like balancing bowls of soup, occasionally, you're going to spill some... case in point, cracked rear toggle, or, broken rear toggle pin...
Me personally, I just shoot'em, I don't know what makes'em work! (like Oddball, Kellys heros!) Best, til.....lat'r....GT....

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sharpsdressed Man

I've heard that, but wasn't 124gr. standard issue in WWII?

Not sure what the standard load was in WW2 as there were multiple loads in 9mm using light to heavy bullets manufactured. The original military load in 1908 when the Luger was adopted by the Imperial German Army was 123 grains at roughly 1090 fps.

Bullet weight and velocity are only two factors to consider. The powder used makes a huge difference. The powder must provide the proper impulse without excessive pressures and a medium burning powder is probably the best choice. Slow powders can maintain high pressures for too long and cause damage such as your broken toggle.

Most people find that Winchester 115 grain white box cartridges work the Luger action well. Be cautioned that heavy loads and NATO spec cartridges are a really bad idea for the Luger.

[G.T.]

If your preferred load checks out ok, then inspect the main spring? Too weak, or pooched from time and use, will break rear axils? I'm sure rear toggles take a beating also with that issue?... best, GT...

[Deputywood]

You guys are making me nervous about shooting my antique pistols, specifically my lugers.

Woody

[Bill_in_VA]

Originally Posted by Deputywood

You guys are making me nervous about shooting my antique pistols, specifically my lugers.

Woody

You should be nervous. This is a perfect example of why shooting a nice, matching, collectible pistol is a bad idea. The OP’s gun instantly became a mismatched shooter with appropriate devaluation.

[gunbugs]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

You should be nervous. This is a perfect example of why shooting a nice, matching, collectible pistol is a bad idea. The OP’s gun instantly became a mismatched shooter with appropriate devaluation.

That only matters if "collector value" is the only reason you buy Lugers. Now he can shoot it all he wants.

[Mac Cat]

You may be able to find a replacement toggle with the same 2 digit serial number.
Post something in the Wanted to Buy area.

[tomaustin]

you are rebuilding a weapon, which changes the original history of the weapon and the rules of this board......

with that broken part replacement, it will forever be a mismatched weapon, even if the numbers technically match......

to represent it any other way is not correct......

Tom

[Sharpsdressed Man]

All true, but not to worry. Mine was a much carried, almost no finish gun with sweet trigger pull and well kept bore. Of little value to a collector. Thanks to all for comments. I may seek out a "69" toggle on the forum. I've already had to replace an extractor and improvise a higher front sight (f rom a P1).

[mrerick]

It's a good idea to inspect a toggle train for headspace and any looseness (forward / rearward) which is additive along the entire train including the breech block, center block, rear toggle and all the axle pins. There should be very little forward / rearward play perceptible on a Luger, and a headspace gauge should verify cartridge case positioning in the chamber.

As a Luger wears, this play will increase over time and the shock of a loose toggle train being driven to the rear against the frame ears where the toggle locks during firing can cause metal fatigue and failure. Remember that the toggle train operates like a knee joint until it is driven upward against the frame ears during cycling.

[Eugen]

For whatever reason I have rarely taken my shooter Lugars to the range much in the past three years. It must have something to do with getting Covid-19. 😀 I still like to hold 'em and clean 'em, but they just don't go in my range bag like they used to.

[spangy]

Originally Posted by Curly1

I would suggest you stick to the 115gr WWB

This is especially important today as powder technology has improved combustion and consistency from the 'Luger'' days.
I only use 115gr to a max of 124gr on occasion ... never use P, +P or NATO.

Overpressure ammo, also known as +P ammo, is ammo that is loaded to generate a higher-than-standard chamber pressure during ignition. A +P cartridge will give its bullet a faster than usual muzzle velocity. This in turn confers a flatter trajectory and the delivery of more kinetic energy to the target but could also stress older firearms barrels and breaches to the point of destruction.

Not worth it IMO

[spangy]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Most people find that Winchester 115 grain white box cartridges work the Luger action well. Be cautioned that heavy loads and NATO spec cartridges are a really bad idea for the Luger.

Oddly enough these problems occurred in WW2 era as well. The Finnish shot out many Luger barrels by using their 9mm SMG rounds and eventually substituted Tikkakoski barrels for their Luger barrels.

[Jesse]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

You should be nervous. This is a perfect example of why shooting a nice, matching, collectible pistol is a bad idea. The OP’s gun instantly became a mismatched shooter with appropriate devaluation.

i agree, there are still readily available shooters on the market thats not going to take a hit if you need to replace something.

[Edward Tinker]

Although the inertia maybe more with a 124 vs a 115, I have never worried much about it.
But I am not the best example, I have broken two breachblocks

[DonVoigt]

I believe "breakage" has more to do with original but "hidden" defects/faults than with ammo.

But then I have 7 "shooters" , all a little different and mostly mismatched- but they shoot without fail.

I'm curious as to why the Finns would fire their pistols enough to shoot "out" a barrel, hot ammo or not- it's just not logical that a pistol would be fired enough to wear out a barrel ??

Of course they would have replaced barrels with Finn manufactured barrels from Tikka- maybe to achieve some uniformity in configuration (bbl length) ?

They also drilled the "gas escape" hole in the breech block, so perhaps their primers were "thin" and prone to puncture?