missing numbers

CAP Black · 01-23-2013, 02:35 PM

For a 1906 Navy is there any good way to derive the Serial number when the places where the four digits are placed have been ground off? It appears to be a first issue, altered and the 3rd & 4th digits are where they should be; on the small parts. Therefore it's hide and seek on the first two numbers. I can't remember if the side plate has a coded portion of the s.n. or not. How illegal is it to have a gun with the real s.n. removed? Anyway to reliably re-affix the s.n.?
thanks
Jack

Edward Tinker · 01-23-2013, 05:08 PM

I looked at this luger last night, did not know it was on gunbroker

technically a gun before 1968 does not require a serial number, I wondered about the process of having one taken off that was already there.

you can NOT see the first two of the serial number with a loop, from the barrel or the front of the frame. AND the rear unit marking I am sure is missing

Its a very nice 1906 otherwise....

CAP Black · 01-23-2013, 05:19 PM

Is there any way to "back door" the number? How about searching the lists of Navy numbers accounted for and relating to the last two digits and figuring out what number it could be. I thought about using that angle after trying to see if the 2nd number is in the rearranged number on the side plate..... I'll see what I can come up with.

Ed when you say looked at; was that in personal inspection or on the web?
thanks
Jack

Norme · 01-23-2013, 05:27 PM

Hi Jack, Unfortunately there is no way to retrieve the first two digits of this gun's serial number. If it was a 1908 they would be on the bottom of the receiver, just ahead of the lug, where the last two digits are stamped. I've seen photos of this gun, and based on the appearance of the C/M stamps, I would guess that the original number was between 5000 and 9999 no suffix. Since we know the last two digits, that just leaves 50 possibilities. And, by the way, none of these numbers are currently on the Navy List.
Regards, Norm

mdrumbore · 01-23-2013, 05:47 PM

There's no issue with an old military weapon not having a serial number. My Dad checked with the ATF on this when he was offered a nice G33/40 Mauser that did not have the serial number. An old military weapon is one thing to list as no serial number in the books but anything modern is another story.

I saw that navy on gunbroker myself the other night and was curious about it myself.

CAP Black · 01-23-2013, 05:53 PM

I have a 1st issue altered it is 4250. Why do you put this one between 5,000 & 9,000. Wasn't 1st issue only up to 8,000?
Thanks
Jack

P.S. I just checked my 1st issue, altered and there is no help on the side plate: It is straight forward on the last two digits.

Norme · 01-23-2013, 06:18 PM

Hi Jack, The 1906 1st Issues went from 1 no suffix to about 8000a, in other words, 18,000 guns. Based on the appearance of the C/M marks, which underwent several subtle changes during the course of this production run, I would guess that this gun was in the latter half of the no suffix block.
As Ed has said, this is otherwise a beautiful gun, and it's a great shame that it was disfigured in this way.
Regards, Norm

Edward Tinker · 01-23-2013, 07:52 PM

yes, was called by a new found friend, then after visiting my wife at the hospital (she had both knees replaced Monday), I dropped by, and the seller was a very nice guy (former LE, so I liked him immediately).

Took it completely apart, looked down the barrel, etc.

If I had the money, I would buy it as a very nice shooter, very nice bore and the rest of the gun is a beauty.

Ed

CAP Black · 01-23-2013, 10:03 PM

I understand the count but I thought the Navy order was for only 8,000 pistols. I see from examining the list of Navys, on record, that up into the 9,000s show up on the list. Nothing like a second hand inspection by a pro. I can really appreciate your sharing the investigation and the knowledge gained.
Thanks
Jack

John Sabato · 01-24-2013, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

For a 1906 Navy is there any good way to derive the Serial number when the places where the four digits are placed have been ground off?

... How illegal is it to have a gun with the real s.n. removed?

Sorry... but you are all operating under a pretty thin assumption here about old guns not requiring a serial number... in my opinion, this only applies IF the gun was manufactured without a serial number, not if one has been removed.

I am not a lawyer, but I have been in the gun game for over 50 years and have known several ATF agents in my time... some good and some bad...and IMNSHO, this gun is a walking federal felony (called defacing a serial number) if, in fact, the missing numbers have been ground off... and possession of a gun that has had the serial number defaced would also be a federal felony.

Picking it up at a show or in a shop to examine it is one thing, but I wouldn't even allow this gun to enter my home.

Possessing this gun is taking a chance with your personal right to own and use firearms, and FREEDOM that isn't worth whatever they are asking for it. Don't say you haven't been warned.

If you are not convinced, then just read this thread that was posted today by Yesterday, 10:39 PM #1
Terry Tiell about a gun confiscation incident regarding the BATFE view of serial number "manipulation"

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=29824

I say "BE AFRAID---BE VERY AFRAID"

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

Anyway to reliably re-affix the s.n.?
thanks
Jack

If you have PROOF of what the actual serial number should be, the BATFE can advise you on getting the number properly re-affixed to the gun... but you still run the risk that they would confiscate the gun for having the serial number defaced in the first place.

An example...In the mid 1970's, when I had the late Lewis Seecamp modify my all steel Colt Combat Commander .45 to true double-action, the modification required that the serial number be moved. Mr. Seecamp had a letter from the ATF that authorized him to move the serial number from it's standard location to the underside of the frame forward of the trigger, because the modification basically amounted to the gun being "re-manufactured"... This had to be done IN ADVANCE of the modification, not afterward, to ensure that the legal line on defacing the original serial number was not crossed in the eyes of the ATF.

Norme · 01-24-2013, 10:45 AM

In case anyone is wondering what we're talking about, here is a link to the Gunbroker listing:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=326685146
I have no idea what the legal consequences are of buying a gun which has had it's serial numbers removed, but I would have to agree with John, it's just not a risk worth taking.
Regards, Norm

John Sabato · 01-24-2013, 11:50 AM

Anyone should be able to look at these two photos that are in the auction and see that the number was intentionally removed.

The perpetrator not only removed the number from the front of the frame, and the bottom of the barrel, but was sloppy enough that he allowed the file or abrasive device that was used to touch the bottom of the barrel where the witness mark is located. See the white spot at the witness mark?

While I do not have a good profile photo of a Luger long frame in the area of the takedown lever, If someone does have a good photo, please post it here and compare it with the one in the auction and you will see the not so subtle change in the normally graceful curve of the front of the frame...

I stand by my evaluation. This gun is bad news. IMHO, this FFL dealer has placed his entire career and reputation in jeopardy.

alanint · 01-24-2013, 11:56 AM

I agree with your assessment, John. Serial number defacement puts this gun entirely into the felony category.

ithacaartist · 01-24-2013, 12:29 PM

I've seen how it is possible to determine what a serial number is, even after it has been ground off (depending...).

Since material under the surface is affected--its structure compressed, and somewhat work-hardened--by the strike of a die, signs of what the number was will appear in miniscule relief upon the application of acid to a surface that appears to be flat and smooth. The process works similarly to how the relief between steel of two different hardness-es is brought out on Damascus steel barrels and blades. The harder of the materials will resist the acid's erosion more than the softer material adjacent to it.

What this would do to the area on the gun in question is anybody'e guess. You can at least kiss the finish goodbye. Another question is whether there is enough of the below-the-surface metal left to test. If enough steel has been removed, it will also contain this evidence. The edge profile on this one makes the last question relevant, since it appears to have undergone plenty of grinding to be in the shape it's in now., so it is a crap-shoot to look for the former markings in this way.

Whether the serial number's determination and restoration would be allowed by the Feds--or without a lot of hassle, if so--is a good question.

John Sabato · 01-24-2013, 01:05 PM

Hi Jack, to the best of my recollection, the only Lugers that have hint to the first two digits of the serial number are the late war manufacture Mausers. Inside the sideplate of the gun is a two digit number that is one digit higher than the first two digits of the serial number... This doesn't happen on the other manufacturers guns.

Example. If the 4 digit serial number is 4257, then the 2 digit number stamped on the inside of the sideplate will be 43. At least that has been my experience on all the late mausers I have handled. Why the Germans did this? I have NO idea.

SO, if the sideplate on your Mauser happened to be the same last two digits of the serial number but the inside number isn't one digit higher than the first two digits of the serial number, then your sideplate wouldn't be the original one.

CAP Black · 01-24-2013, 02:02 PM

1906 isn't a Mauser, is it?

Norme · 01-24-2013, 02:43 PM

Hi John, Here is the view you requested. I don't think that much metal has been removed, it looks worse than it really is. It's certainly nothing that a good restorer couldn't take care of. I've heard that there is a chemical method for revealing serial numbers that have been ground, and less metal seems to have been removed under the barrel, so restoration is not impossible. However, I have no idea what the legal position would be.
Regards, Norm

John Sabato · 01-24-2013, 03:01 PM

No CAP... Military Mauser production is mid 1930's till the end of the war...

CAP Black · 01-27-2013, 09:56 PM

Someone bid up to the reserve amount on this pistol and purchased it. Wish them luck.
Thanks
Jack

JCP · 01-27-2013, 10:31 PM

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

As an FFL for 34 years and retired law enforcment you need to check out the above link. Go to page 10 and page 43 for information on serial numbers.

Joe

01-23-2013, 05:53 PM	#6
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	I have a 1st issue altered it is 4250. Why do you put this one between 5,000 & 9,000. Wasn't 1st issue only up to 8,000? Thanks Jack P.S. I just checked my 1st issue, altered and there is no help on the side plate: It is straight forward on the last two digits. Last edited by CAP Black; 01-23-2013 at 05:59 PM. Reason: add a comment

01-24-2013, 11:50 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Obvious Defaced Number Anyone should be able to look at these two photos that are in the auction and see that the number was intentionally removed. The perpetrator not only removed the number from the front of the frame, and the bottom of the barrel, but was sloppy enough that he allowed the file or abrasive device that was used to touch the bottom of the barrel where the witness mark is located. See the white spot at the witness mark? While I do not have a good profile photo of a Luger long frame in the area of the takedown lever, If someone does have a good photo, please post it here and compare it with the one in the auction and you will see the not so subtle change in the normally graceful curve of the front of the frame... I stand by my evaluation. This gun is bad news. IMHO, this FFL dealer has placed his entire career and reputation in jeopardy. Attached Images __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-24-2013, 12:29 PM	#14
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,283 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	I've seen how it is possible to determine what a serial number is, even after it has been ground off (depending...). Since material under the surface is affected--its structure compressed, and somewhat work-hardened--by the strike of a die, signs of what the number was will appear in miniscule relief upon the application of acid to a surface that appears to be flat and smooth. The process works similarly to how the relief between steel of two different hardness-es is brought out on Damascus steel barrels and blades. The harder of the materials will resist the acid's erosion more than the softer material adjacent to it. What this would do to the area on the gun in question is anybody'e guess. You can at least kiss the finish goodbye. Another question is whether there is enough of the below-the-surface metal left to test. If enough steel has been removed, it will also contain this evidence. The edge profile on this one makes the last question relevant, since it appears to have undergone plenty of grinding to be in the shape it's in now., so it is a crap-shoot to look for the former markings in this way. Whether the serial number's determination and restoration would be allowed by the Feds--or without a lot of hassle, if so--is a good question. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

01-24-2013, 01:05 PM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hi Jack, to the best of my recollection, the only Lugers that have hint to the first two digits of the serial number are the late war manufacture Mausers. Inside the sideplate of the gun is a two digit number that is one digit higher than the first two digits of the serial number... This doesn't happen on the other manufacturers guns. Example. If the 4 digit serial number is 4257, then the 2 digit number stamped on the inside of the sideplate will be 43. At least that has been my experience on all the late mausers I have handled. Why the Germans did this? I have NO idea. SO, if the sideplate on your Mauser happened to be the same last two digits of the serial number but the inside number isn't one digit higher than the first two digits of the serial number, then your sideplate wouldn't be the original one. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-24-2013, 02:43 PM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi John, Here is the view you requested. I don't think that much metal has been removed, it looks worse than it really is. It's certainly nothing that a good restorer couldn't take care of. I've heard that there is a chemical method for revealing serial numbers that have been ground, and less metal seems to have been removed under the barrel, so restoration is not impossible. However, I have no idea what the legal position would be. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

01-23-2013, 02:35 PM	#1
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	missing numbers For a 1906 Navy is there any good way to derive the Serial number when the places where the four digits are placed have been ground off? It appears to be a first issue, altered and the 3rd & 4th digits are where they should be; on the small parts. Therefore it's hide and seek on the first two numbers. I can't remember if the side plate has a coded portion of the s.n. or not. How illegal is it to have a gun with the real s.n. removed? Anyway to reliably re-affix the s.n.? thanks Jack

01-23-2013, 05:08 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I looked at this luger last night, did not know it was on gunbroker technically a gun before 1968 does not require a serial number, I wondered about the process of having one taken off that was already there. you can NOT see the first two of the serial number with a loop, from the barrel or the front of the frame. AND the rear unit marking I am sure is missing Its a very nice 1906 otherwise....

01-23-2013, 05:19 PM	#3
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Is there any way to "back door" the number? How about searching the lists of Navy numbers accounted for and relating to the last two digits and figuring out what number it could be. I thought about using that angle after trying to see if the 2nd number is in the rearranged number on the side plate..... I'll see what I can come up with. Ed when you say looked at; was that in personal inspection or on the web? thanks Jack

01-23-2013, 05:27 PM	#4
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Jack, Unfortunately there is no way to retrieve the first two digits of this gun's serial number. If it was a 1908 they would be on the bottom of the receiver, just ahead of the lug, where the last two digits are stamped. I've seen photos of this gun, and based on the appearance of the C/M stamps, I would guess that the original number was between 5000 and 9999 no suffix. Since we know the last two digits, that just leaves 50 possibilities. And, by the way, none of these numbers are currently on the Navy List. Regards, Norm

01-23-2013, 05:47 PM	#5
mdrumbore User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 51 Thanks: 7 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	There's no issue with an old military weapon not having a serial number. My Dad checked with the ATF on this when he was offered a nice G33/40 Mauser that did not have the serial number. An old military weapon is one thing to list as no serial number in the books but anything modern is another story. I saw that navy on gunbroker myself the other night and was curious about it myself.

01-23-2013, 06:18 PM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Jack, The 1906 1st Issues went from 1 no suffix to about 8000a, in other words, 18,000 guns. Based on the appearance of the C/M marks, which underwent several subtle changes during the course of this production run, I would guess that this gun was in the latter half of the no suffix block. As Ed has said, this is otherwise a beautiful gun, and it's a great shame that it was disfigured in this way. Regards, Norm

01-23-2013, 07:52 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	yes, was called by a new found friend, then after visiting my wife at the hospital (she had both knees replaced Monday), I dropped by, and the seller was a very nice guy (former LE, so I liked him immediately). Took it completely apart, looked down the barrel, etc. If I had the money, I would buy it as a very nice shooter, very nice bore and the rest of the gun is a beauty. Ed

01-23-2013, 10:03 PM	#9
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	I understand the count but I thought the Navy order was for only 8,000 pistols. I see from examining the list of Navys, on record, that up into the 9,000s show up on the list. Nothing like a second hand inspection by a pro. I can really appreciate your sharing the investigation and the knowledge gained. Thanks Jack

01-24-2013, 10:45 AM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	In case anyone is wondering what we're talking about, here is a link to the Gunbroker listing: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=326685146 I have no idea what the legal consequences are of buying a gun which has had it's serial numbers removed, but I would have to agree with John, it's just not a risk worth taking. Regards, Norm

01-24-2013, 11:56 AM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I agree with your assessment, John. Serial number defacement puts this gun entirely into the felony category.

01-24-2013, 02:02 PM	#16
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	1906 isn't a Mauser, is it?

01-24-2013, 03:01 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	No CAP... Military Mauser production is mid 1930's till the end of the war... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-27-2013, 09:56 PM	#19
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Someone bid up to the reserve amount on this pistol and purchased it. Wish them luck. Thanks Jack

01-27-2013, 10:31 PM	#20
JCP User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 5 Posts	http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf As an FFL for 34 years and retired law enforcment you need to check out the above link. Go to page 10 and page 43 for information on serial numbers. Joe