$4000 hand made Broomhandle

alvin · 07-28-2009, 08:18 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=135596497

Enjoy.

calibrator · 07-28-2009, 09:42 PM

I kinda like the grips. If I had $4k I could buy the 3 REAL C-96s I currently have my eye on and be a happy man for quite some time. That gun is pure ART, as an artist, I can tell you that ART has little if ANY value in today's world unless the artist is dead ( think Andy Warhol, another good pollock ) !!

Joe

alvin · 07-28-2009, 10:12 PM

High quality handmade is usually more expansive than REAL. Those European made high quality 2:1 miniature C96 is super expansive. This one's quality is not high. Anyway, it's interesting to know there are people making this thing at home.

var99 · 07-28-2009, 11:47 PM

I agree with Alvin, the quality of this one is not that high, contrast it to the 1/3 scale 1911 that Joe Salter http://www.joesalter.com/ has on his site, item 12661. Its an outstanding piece of work by D Kurcer http://www.kucers.com, on the other hand its nearly twice the price.
Check out Kucer's site he has some amazing 1/3rd scale items including an artillery luger.

Vince

Ice · 07-29-2009, 06:25 AM

Anyone who can produce quality miniatures has to have an exceptional talent and love of art. Even though the little broomhandle is relatively crude compared to Mr. Kucer's works I am still in awe of the maker's ability. Thanks for adding to my education.

Charlie

sheepherder · 07-29-2009, 07:09 AM

Interesting...Some of the proportions are off, and he's added a few embellishments, but overall a nice piece...

Ron Wood · 07-29-2009, 10:26 AM

I'm no expert but I'm not sure that is Crottet's work. His pieces are usually painstakingly accurate.

sheepherder · 07-29-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I'm no expert but I'm not sure that is Crottet's work. His pieces are usually painstakingly accurate.

Well, it's serial # 10001...Maybe it's the first one he ever did...

Looking at the scale next to it...10 1/2 inches from grip center to the barrel end...My two Brooms measure 12 inches...that's not much of a "scale model"...that's pretty much full-size...

...And why .32 ACP??? That's bigger than 30 caliber...

There's so many little things wrong with it, as opposed to Crottet's painstakingly accurate other models...that I'm inclined to agree with Ron Wood...

But it is still impressive...It's like someone with a good machine tools background made one from an illustrated book...rather than from an actual Broomhandle...

alvin · 07-29-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

...And why .32 ACP??? That's bigger than 30 caliber...

Initially, I thought it's a blowback implementation. Then noticed the bolt does have locking lug, so I am lost again. "who knows, the cut under the bolt could be non-functional decoration". But it's hard to imagine how to hook the parts together without a bolt lock, which is the heart of the system. Could the caliber be local law related...

===

It's short recoil. The barrel moves when the bolt opens, pix 14.

sheepherder · 07-29-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

It's short recoil. The barrel moves when the bolt opens, pix 14.

So does the C96 barrel...

alvin · 07-29-2009, 10:26 PM

Yes. So does the Mauser.

There are many weird guns on the market. Here is another one -- rebarreled 9m/m. Does the work look like Weimar, or recent?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=135718722

Postie -- is this 9x19 your work?

PhilOhio · 07-29-2009, 10:50 PM

Postino,

Bullet diameter for .32 ACP is actually .308, so it is a true .30 caliber. It is one of about 30 cartridges I reload for...casting or swaging all the bullets. I forget where the "32" name came from, but it is indeed misleading, as are some other cartridge names evolving from black powder and heeled bullet days.

Bore diameter of the original gun is the same. So the main thing this different cartridge offers is perhaps the chance to eliminate all the complex inner lock work. Maybe. .32 ACP pressure and recoil impulse is much lower, along with velocity. It's still a strange project to select.

Ron,

Same thought hit me right away. The quality on this piece is not quite at the "10" level. Also, I was wondering if it is straight blowback, but then on the exposed underside of the bolt I see what appears to be a locking block cut. Of course, it could be cosmetic.

But my hat is off to anybody who puts this much time into such an obvious labor of love, whether or not it comes up to the standards of David Kucer of Canada. I used to see him every year at the North American Model Engineering Society shows near Detroit or in Toledo. Didn't see him this year. Anybody know if he is still with us, as he was getting along in years last time I spoke with him? The NAMES show is moving back to (Ypsilanti?) next year. Catch it if you can, guys. They usually have some incredibly beautiful .22LR Gatlings and a few small cannons, also...along with examples of Kucer's work.

sheepherder · 07-30-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilOhio

Postino,

Bullet diameter for .32 ACP is actually .308...

Phil -

I don't reload 32 ACP (although I have a 32 savage), but I was going on the diameters given at Midway...".312 - .313"...[pic below]

Alvin -

No; not one of mine...My rebarrels have a "step" like the M30's where I make my joint...BTW: How do you know it's a rebarrel??? It doesn't say in the auction...

alvin · 07-30-2009, 07:18 AM

Let's assume it's a full implmentation. Most likely it is. The chamber pressure of .32ACP is lower than .30 Mauser, that should simplify heat treating. Probably no heat treating was needed at all.

===

The description of the 9x19 mentioned the upper is clean and excellent. But the connection area between receiver and barrel is abnormal (red), and there is a thin circular line around the barrel (blue).

PhilOhio · 07-30-2009, 11:47 AM

Postino,

I have not seen the Midway numbers on .32 ACP bore diameter, but my opinion is that they are not going quite low enough. And there is considerable variation, as these guns have been made in great quantity by a host of manufacturers, in Europe and in the U.S., for about a century.

A long accepted Lyman specification for the .32 ACP range is .308" - .312". My two Ortgies, an early Colt, and a postwar Mauser HSc measure right at the thirty (.308) caliber groove diameter low end, and bullets sized to that diameter fit the bores and engrave perfectly. .309" would be a common tight fit sizing recommendation for a lead bullet, with .308" used for jacketed bullets.

This is sort of an interesting subject because, for a long time, .32 ACP had fallen by the wayside. Most reloading manuals stopped mentioning it. Now, with the nationwide reform of concealed carry laws and the availability of new high tech expanding bullets, the caliber is becoming popular again; because of the ease of making small and concealable blowback pistols which do not have to deal with high pressures.

I suspect that most manufactures of guns and bullets will lean toward the .308 - .309 bullets, because they can stick with available 30 caliber tooling in the pipeline.

...But then you got me wondering and doubting myself, vis a vis all of the above. So I went down and got a full green (older) box of Remington 71 grain hardball .32 ACP ammo and measured the bullets. Guess what? They are using a diameter of .305"! Can you imagine one of those bullets rattling down the barrel of a pistol bored to Midway's .313" specification and falling on the floor? That's what happens with such tolerances, even more so in a revolver. Been there, done that. The shot makes a "ploop" sound, no "bang". You can watch it flop into the grass downrange.

Does that further muddy the waters, or what? My conjecture is that this Remington value may be another example of lawyer-engineered ammo that goes "bang", but is guaranteed not to stick in the bore of any gun made since 1905. And yes, I regularly calibrate my micrometers.

Further, all of this relates to Lugers. We have the .30 Luger cartridge, also known in Europe as 7.65MM Parabellum. In my reference book, bullet diameter is .3095", which is close enough to a true .30 caliber dimension of .308". Lyman says .308 - .310 for this cartridge. So the round could just as fairly be called the ".32 Luger", the way the industry plays fast and loose with terminology applied to true dimensions.

I apologize if this is too much detail for some of you, but I'm a ballistics tech junky and spend a lot of time playing with load development, focused on old and high quality guns...like our beloved Lugers; can't get enough of it. As 2nd Amendment advocate Chuck Schumer might put it, "It keeps Phil off the streets."

sheepherder · 07-30-2009, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

The description of the 9x19 mentioned the upper is clean and excellent. But the connection area between receiver and barrel is abnormal (red), and there is a thin circular line around the barrel (blue).

I had noticed the line; it is not at a point that I use to rebarrel. That line bisects the chamber; I was always taught not to make my join in the chamber, but ahead of it. I also don't agree with the way the barrel/extension transition is done; OEM Mauser is concave, that transitional section is convex...It looks funny...

Phil -

I pulled out a brand-new box of 32ACP made by Magtech, 71 gr FMJ, the exposed section of the bullet next to the case (biggest dia I can measure) is .307". Headstamp is "CBC 32 AUTO", and the box says "Made In Brazil". Bullet looks more like a copper-washed lead bullet rather than a real jacketed lead bullet. Haven't fired any yet, so I can't say if it falls out or not...

BTW: 50 rds of Magtech was $16.95...

PhilOhio · 07-30-2009, 07:28 PM

Postino,

Wow! These .32 ACP commercial bullet diameters may be all over the board. I never paid any attention to actually measuring one until today, shooting nothing but my own cast bullets and having accepted the .308" to .309" lead bullet sizing recommendations from Lyman.

A .307" jacketed bullet should work O.K. in most bores, I imagine, but it would not be a tight fit and would not be especially accurate. Of course, most of these pistols are not known for accuracy anyway, and few users would ever be aware of the diameter or wonder why the gun was not a tack driver.

But these .305" Remington bullets just have me shaking my head...wondering...

And you got an amazing price on that Magtech ammo. It's good stuff. Colt uses it to accuracy test their SAAs after tuning; did so with one of mine.

Anybody else have some commercial .32ACP bullets to measure? If you use a vernier caliper, right in front of the case mouth on a loaded round, you should have true bullet diameter to measure.

I would be curious to see if any of them come close to the high numbers Midway mentions.

alvin · 07-30-2009, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

I was always taught not to make my join in the chamber, but ahead of it.

Did the mentor explain why? Astra 900 series had barrel installed at this location.

sheepherder · 07-31-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Did the mentor explain why? Astra 900 series had barrel installed at this location.

The Astra chamber was split???

It was quite a while back...IIRC, it had to do with different expansion rates of dissimilar alloys...I suppose, if your headspace is only .004", it wouldn't take much to throw it off...

Thinking about this particular barrel, we don't know which end was threaded internally and which was threaded externally...or if it was even threaded (might have been just a brazed/silver soldered joint)...

Or the chamber may not be bisected...it may have a long threaded/brazed stub...

...If it is indeed a new barrel...

I've seen auctions that stated the C96 barrel had been relined...I have a section of 9mm liner material downstairs, and although it is pretty thin itself, there wouldn't be much "meat" left in the barrel after boring it to take the liner...I'm leery of brazing/silver soldering a liner in...

Do you have a pic of that Astra barrel, how it has the split chamber??? I'm looking at the cutaway of the Astra 600 in the NRA Firearms Assembly book, and it looks similar to a Colt 1911 barrel...I don't see what you mean...

PhilOhio · 07-31-2009, 11:06 AM

Postino,

When I belatedly looked again at the clip (above) which you posted from the Midway ad, I see what happened. It says "32 caliber", not .32 ACP. Whoever drafted it picked up the correct numbers for lead bullets in .32-20, aka .32 WCF, and assumed all .32s are the same, which they are not. Their numbers would also be about correct for .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long. Then the obsolete .32-40 would be much larger, a true .32. There have been a bunch of .32s over the years, and the defunct Short and Long rimfires were true .32s, with heeled bullets, like .22 Long Rifle. But .32 ACP is most assuredly a .30 caliber, as is .30 Luger/7.65mm Parabellum.

I load and make bullets for all of these except .32-40.

07-28-2009, 08:18 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	$4000 hand made Broomhandle http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=135596497 Enjoy.

07-29-2009, 10:26 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I'm no expert but I'm not sure that is Crottet's work. His pieces are usually painstakingly accurate. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-30-2009, 07:18 AM	#14
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Let's assume it's a full implmentation. Most likely it is. The chamber pressure of .32ACP is lower than .30 Mauser, that should simplify heat treating. Probably no heat treating was needed at all. === The description of the 9x19 mentioned the upper is clean and excellent. But the connection area between receiver and barrel is abnormal (red), and there is a thin circular line around the barrel (blue). Attached Images

07-28-2009, 09:42 PM	#2
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 242 Times in 92 Posts	I kinda like the grips. If I had $4k I could buy the 3 REAL C-96s I currently have my eye on and be a happy man for quite some time. That gun is pure ART, as an artist, I can tell you that ART has little if ANY value in today's world unless the artist is dead ( think Andy Warhol, another good pollock ) !! Joe

07-28-2009, 10:12 PM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	High quality handmade is usually more expansive than REAL. Those European made high quality 2:1 miniature C96 is super expansive. This one's quality is not high. Anyway, it's interesting to know there are people making this thing at home.

07-28-2009, 11:47 PM	#4
var99 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: FL Posts: 114 Thanks: 4 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I agree with Alvin, the quality of this one is not that high, contrast it to the 1/3 scale 1911 that Joe Salter http://www.joesalter.com/ has on his site, item 12661. Its an outstanding piece of work by D Kurcer http://www.kucers.com, on the other hand its nearly twice the price. Check out Kucer's site he has some amazing 1/3rd scale items including an artillery luger. Vince

07-29-2009, 06:25 AM	#5
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	Anyone who can produce quality miniatures has to have an exceptional talent and love of art. Even though the little broomhandle is relatively crude compared to Mr. Kucer's works I am still in awe of the maker's ability. Thanks for adding to my education. Charlie

07-29-2009, 07:09 AM	#6
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Interesting...Some of the proportions are off, and he's added a few embellishments, but overall a nice piece...

07-29-2009, 10:26 PM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Yes. So does the Mauser. There are many weird guns on the market. Here is another one -- rebarreled 9m/m. Does the work look like Weimar, or recent? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=135718722 Postie -- is this 9x19 your work?

07-29-2009, 10:50 PM	#12
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Postino, Bullet diameter for .32 ACP is actually .308, so it is a true .30 caliber. It is one of about 30 cartridges I reload for...casting or swaging all the bullets. I forget where the "32" name came from, but it is indeed misleading, as are some other cartridge names evolving from black powder and heeled bullet days. Bore diameter of the original gun is the same. So the main thing this different cartridge offers is perhaps the chance to eliminate all the complex inner lock work. Maybe. .32 ACP pressure and recoil impulse is much lower, along with velocity. It's still a strange project to select. Ron, Same thought hit me right away. The quality on this piece is not quite at the "10" level. Also, I was wondering if it is straight blowback, but then on the exposed underside of the bolt I see what appears to be a locking block cut. Of course, it could be cosmetic. But my hat is off to anybody who puts this much time into such an obvious labor of love, whether or not it comes up to the standards of David Kucer of Canada. I used to see him every year at the North American Model Engineering Society shows near Detroit or in Toledo. Didn't see him this year. Anybody know if he is still with us, as he was getting along in years last time I spoke with him? The NAMES show is moving back to (Ypsilanti?) next year. Catch it if you can, guys. They usually have some incredibly beautiful .22LR Gatlings and a few small cannons, also...along with examples of Kucer's work.

07-30-2009, 11:47 AM	#15
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Postino, I have not seen the Midway numbers on .32 ACP bore diameter, but my opinion is that they are not going quite low enough. And there is considerable variation, as these guns have been made in great quantity by a host of manufacturers, in Europe and in the U.S., for about a century. A long accepted Lyman specification for the .32 ACP range is .308" - .312". My two Ortgies, an early Colt, and a postwar Mauser HSc measure right at the thirty (.308) caliber groove diameter low end, and bullets sized to that diameter fit the bores and engrave perfectly. .309" would be a common tight fit sizing recommendation for a lead bullet, with .308" used for jacketed bullets. This is sort of an interesting subject because, for a long time, .32 ACP had fallen by the wayside. Most reloading manuals stopped mentioning it. Now, with the nationwide reform of concealed carry laws and the availability of new high tech expanding bullets, the caliber is becoming popular again; because of the ease of making small and concealable blowback pistols which do not have to deal with high pressures. I suspect that most manufactures of guns and bullets will lean toward the .308 - .309 bullets, because they can stick with available 30 caliber tooling in the pipeline. ...But then you got me wondering and doubting myself, vis a vis all of the above. So I went down and got a full green (older) box of Remington 71 grain hardball .32 ACP ammo and measured the bullets. Guess what? They are using a diameter of .305"! Can you imagine one of those bullets rattling down the barrel of a pistol bored to Midway's .313" specification and falling on the floor? That's what happens with such tolerances, even more so in a revolver. Been there, done that. The shot makes a "ploop" sound, no "bang". You can watch it flop into the grass downrange. Does that further muddy the waters, or what? My conjecture is that this Remington value may be another example of lawyer-engineered ammo that goes "bang", but is guaranteed not to stick in the bore of any gun made since 1905. And yes, I regularly calibrate my micrometers. Further, all of this relates to Lugers. We have the .30 Luger cartridge, also known in Europe as 7.65MM Parabellum. In my reference book, bullet diameter is .3095", which is close enough to a true .30 caliber dimension of .308". Lyman says .308 - .310 for this cartridge. So the round could just as fairly be called the ".32 Luger", the way the industry plays fast and loose with terminology applied to true dimensions. I apologize if this is too much detail for some of you, but I'm a ballistics tech junky and spend a lot of time playing with load development, focused on old and high quality guns...like our beloved Lugers; can't get enough of it. As 2nd Amendment advocate Chuck Schumer might put it, "It keeps Phil off the streets."

07-30-2009, 07:28 PM	#17
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Postino, Wow! These .32 ACP commercial bullet diameters may be all over the board. I never paid any attention to actually measuring one until today, shooting nothing but my own cast bullets and having accepted the .308" to .309" lead bullet sizing recommendations from Lyman. A .307" jacketed bullet should work O.K. in most bores, I imagine, but it would not be a tight fit and would not be especially accurate. Of course, most of these pistols are not known for accuracy anyway, and few users would ever be aware of the diameter or wonder why the gun was not a tack driver. But these .305" Remington bullets just have me shaking my head...wondering... And you got an amazing price on that Magtech ammo. It's good stuff. Colt uses it to accuracy test their SAAs after tuning; did so with one of mine. Anybody else have some commercial .32ACP bullets to measure? If you use a vernier caliper, right in front of the case mouth on a loaded round, you should have true bullet diameter to measure. I would be curious to see if any of them come close to the high numbers Midway mentions.

07-31-2009, 11:06 AM	#20
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Postino, When I belatedly looked again at the clip (above) which you posted from the Midway ad, I see what happened. It says "32 caliber", not .32 ACP. Whoever drafted it picked up the correct numbers for lead bullets in .32-20, aka .32 WCF, and assumed all .32s are the same, which they are not. Their numbers would also be about correct for .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long. Then the obsolete .32-40 would be much larger, a true .32. There have been a bunch of .32s over the years, and the defunct Short and Long rimfires were true .32s, with heeled bullets, like .22 Long Rifle. But .32 ACP is most assuredly a .30 caliber, as is .30 Luger/7.65mm Parabellum. I load and make bullets for all of these except .32-40.