Home rust bluing - Page 2

Luke · 08-29-2003, 02:52 PM

This controversy will never be fully resolved.

One thing I have noticed is that many (maybe most) of the DWM Lugers available on the market have been restrawed. This process is within the capabilities of most collectors, although few do it as well as Thor, so many of the early DWMs have been restrawed.

Does restrawing disqualify a Luger as a collectable? Maybe . . . . maybe not.

Luke

Michael Zeleny · 08-29-2003, 02:53 PM

Ed, I appreciate the point of trying to keep a restored Luger from being sold 10 years from now as a 98% original gun, when it began restoration as a 90% with a problem. What I find objectionable is the default assumption that one's customer intends to falsify the provenance of his restored gun. More importantly, I question the propriety of defacing a historical artefact with the restorer's signature, outside of the conventional armory practice of certifying its safety with proof loads. Signing a mere cosmetic renovation is sheer vanity.

I own a 1974 Maserati Bora, produced in a series of 549 cars. My car has a second coat of paint, an engine rebuilt with factory NOS parts, and an aftermarket stainless steel exhaust. I would no more allow anyone working on it to affix his signature to the outcome, than I would tolerate a surgeon so decorate the scars that he leaves on my body. If a handgun is to be treated as a classic artefact, similar rules should apply.

Edward Tinker · 08-29-2003, 03:33 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Luke:
Does restrawing disqualify a Luger as a collectable? Maybe . . . . maybe not.<hr /></blockquote>As a purest, I would say. What is the difference in re-strawing or rebluing? Percentage of metal refurbished?

But, I am not a purest, a toggle pin with the wrong number doesn't make it a collectable loss to me, it might be tarnished in my eyes, but it isn't immediately relegated into "shooter" status.

BTW, nice car Michael <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

ed

Big Norm · 08-29-2003, 11:44 PM

It really gets messy when you think of a Luger being bolstered or altered by a professional counterfeiter. I would think that a common army Luger like, oh say, a 1915 DWM would gain anything by rebluing and restrawing it. At todays prices, maybe the same could be said of a 1917 artillery. By the time you bought a barrel and the sights (front and rear), bought or altered the rear toggle and then reblued and restrawed, altered the serial numbers, you just have not gained that much, if anything. You have just spent a lot of time creating a fake.

On the other hand, altering a 1906 Russian army Luger can result in a big increase in price. Maybe the same could be said of a Kreighoff Luger. What was gained by the famous Ralph Shattuck Krieghoff where the chambered date was altered from one rare Krieghoff to another rare Krieghoff? Just some idiot fooling around.

Nazi Era lugers are a different story because small proof marks can change the value of a Luger. Counterfieting a Totenkoff head on a chamber can change the value of a Luger. This is a fine example of how a counterfieter can ruin the collectibility of a fine gun.

There is a guy on the forum who spent a lot of time and effort making an Ideal Stock and holster, including grips for a 1900 or 1906 Luger. Gosh, for the time and effort he spent making it, he could have gotten a part time job and bought a real one.

When a Luger is restored by a skilled craftsman such as Thor or the guy that I sometimes use, Ken Karsted, then I really have a hard time berating the gun. These people restore a Luger to its original beauty without otherwise alterating the gun to increase its value. What has given restoration a bad name are the hackers and the counterfeiters. Hackers because they permanently have destroyed a historic artifact. Counterfeiters because they have committed a fraud for the purpose of cheating someone. Do-Do on them.

This could be a long topic for me because, at heart, I am really a purtist. 99% of my lugers are (I think) original. Even an original (?) Wiemar era navy that I have that has a small cap hinge pin and an army frame. It would have a hard time passing a Tom Armstrongs inspection if it weren't clearly proof marked as a commercial Weimar Era navy Luger.

But the two or three Lugers that I had restored would have been religated to the trash heap if I did not do it. I saw the beautiful swans beneath those ugly ducklings. Someday, somebody is going to happy to have them. Ken Karsted did a fabulous job on them. The only comments that I get is that "they are too perfect".

Well, enough of my ramblings.
Big Norm

Ron Wood · 08-30-2003, 12:00 AM

Big Norm,

That is a well stated position, but I do have to comment on your remarks about the creation of the Ideal holster. Viggo made enough changes in the design that it is not an exact copy of an Ideal holster so that it could not be termed a fake. It also was a labor of love, allowing him to put his considerable skill into making an item he would enjoy. Money isn't everything. Sometimes pride of accomplishing a difficult project is worth a lot more. Plus, he has a brand new rig that he can play with without fear of damaging an original.

I hope I am not coming across as judgemental. I just think highly of both you and Viggo, and I know you didn't intend your comment to be personal.

Best regards,
Ron

A post script...After a good night's sleep I have re-read Norm's comments on the Ideal holster re-creation and realize that read properly, it is not in the least bit critical. It is a complement on the great amount of effort that was required to create such an item. My apologies for thinking otherwise. Rather than edit out my original comments, I would rather take my lumps for leaping to a conclusion. You would think after all these years I would remember the quote that "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

lugerholsterrepair · 08-30-2003, 01:07 PM

Ron, Big Norm...The same can be said of recreating Luger holsters. I looked for five years before I decided I was never going to own an original Imperial 6" Navy holster and made my own.

Ron, Originals like you say, can be fragile and damaged easily. I can use my Navy everyday if I like without fear of damaging a very valuable original.

I still can't believe Viggo went to the trouble of re creating an Ideal stock and Holster...A labor of love to the MAX! He must be quite the machinist.

One thing to remember is these type of skills are really lost to all but a few people in the World today. The society we live in does not provide for the time and patience to cultivate craftsmen of this caliber and they are rare. It is as close to dying out as one could imagine. Jerry Burney

Luke · 08-30-2003, 01:43 PM

I went through the same process as Jerry Burney regarding finding an authentic Navy holster which I could actually use. No such luck.

Instead I bought a commercial model, and Jerry reworked it to make it look exactly like the originals.

Speaking of craftsmen, Jerry's work is really outstanding, and I feel fortunate to have been able to get him to re-create a real Navy holster for me.

Thanks again, Jerry.

Luke

Pete Ebbink · 08-31-2003, 12:18 AM

Knowing Doc Fisher and others that have posted; I am sure these very honest fellows of good character will inform a potential, future owner of their pistols of any rework that has occurred.

All we can hope for is for each of us to be honest and true, and hope the next person in line of our pistol's ownership is made of the same stuff.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Thor · 08-31-2003, 01:05 AM

Pete, I keep track of all reworks I do and if asked a particular variation and serial number I will say yea or nay about if I have reworked it.

ViggoG · 08-31-2003, 05:21 AM

Hi Guys, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
I would say that The Making Of an Ideal Holster at the age of 87 while recovering from A "Radical Nephrectomy to escape Death from Kidney Cancer was more a Rehabilitation Program for me.
After all I could'nt have worked that spare job if I had wanted to, Too Old, and Too weak, to work more than a few minutes at a time, when I started.
I did it as a challenge to myself, I needed to prove to myself that I was still capable getting back of do things that are not do-able.
I think that I made that point, both to myself and to a few others in my locality, who thought that I would never be able to work again.
As a retired NACA/NASA Technician/Researcher I can never again surpass those contributions that I made to the Landing of Man on the Moon and the Landing of Spacecraft on Mars ect.
Now I'm Only making what small knowledge I gained available to any one who wishes to hear how some of these things were done a lifetime ago.
Back when the Age of Science and Machine was beginning to force man to seek answers to the inevitable Grand Questions, How?, When?, Where?, Why?
ViggoG

Luke · 08-31-2003, 07:39 AM

My greatest admiration, Viggo.
You are quite a man.

Luke

Big Norm · 08-31-2003, 09:41 AM

Ron, Jerry and Viggo,
You are right about my including Viggo in my comments. I debated about including that paragraph in expressing my frustrations. I compromised myself during my writing by erasing his name but that probably was not good enough.

Jerry, I have never critisized you because, even though I have never seen your work, I consider you one of those skilled craftsmen who know what they are doing. As a matter of fact, I have a few artillery holster rigs that I think I will be sending to you sometime.

Its just that sometimes I see such terrible butchering of guns by amateurs just to make $25 more on a gun or even just to be able to sell it that I get real upset and I have to let off some steam.

I bought a navy Luger off of a guy that I don't like once for $1300. The guy I bought it off of probably paid less than that at an auction. That was a low price even a few years ago. I saw no pitting, the bore was good and the gun was all original. I turned it over to Ken Karsted and he did a miracle on it. He turned that pigs ear into a fine purse. I have shown that gun to the guy who sold it to me just to rub his nose in it. What a change in his attitude! I have shown it to other collectors during discussions about restorations and I now know that I should not feel any shame about doing it. That gun was considered junk when I bought it and evenually it would have vanished. I consider that gun a treasure now. Someday, someone else is going to own it and they too are going to consider it a treasure.

Now don't get me wrong. I very much do think that Ed Tinker is right in his comments. We are very much closer than we are apart in our philosophy. I wish that I could show the above mentioned navy to Ed over a few very cold beers. Certain guns should not be touched up or restored. These guns would generally be thought of as the rarer and more expensive Lugers. Maybe even the Nazi Era and contract Lugers where marks mean more than on Imperial Era Lugers. Even the guns that are restored should be done by professionals who realize that THE major part of restoring is in the prep work. An absolute minimal amount of metal should be removed (if any) and no marks should be added or enhanced. THEN you consider the type of bluing to use.
Big Norm

ViggoG · 09-01-2003, 12:24 AM

Luke and Norm,
Thanks Guys, Perhaps I should have said it a bit differently.
My intent in my post was not to seek praise or to be chastising of others.
In my long winded way I was trying to say that,
Everything has attributes that appear quite similar or very different depending on how you choose to look at them.
The elephant is in some ways similar to a Luger Pistol, Depending on how you look at them.
Why are you looking, Who is holding, Why is he holding, and the most important, What is the function of the end you viewing?
ViggoG

Big Norm · 09-01-2003, 02:15 AM

Viggo,
you are a real gentleman. I am sorry that I implicated you while making a statement of principle. I remember that I could have used many other examples just as well that would have served the purpose even better. But I got lazy and used you. I am normally a happy go lucky sort of guy and I often hear things about wrong doers in the gun world. While it is a learning experience for me, its frustating to hear what some people will do to make a fast buck on a gun that I like so much.

ViggoG · 09-01-2003, 02:07 PM

Norm,
No apology needed, I took no offense by your post.
I too am disgusted by the criminal acts of some persons in altering anything to appear to be something that it is not.
It makes it rough on the experienced as well as the novice.
It is a well known fact that the criminal mind works in strange ways, Con-Artists are for the most part very intelligent people who spend more time and energy working the Con than they would use if they applied themselves to a ligitimate business.
And to top it off they almost invariably make less in return, not including jail time.
I can understand why they do it, They like the challenge of something for nothing.
Its the same thought process that drives some persons to habitually gamble, a sort of high when you are winning.
I'm sure glad that most people are of the honest variety.
ViggoG

policeluger · 09-02-2003, 11:44 AM

John S. you stated that ALL Thors reworks get his mark "NO exceptions"...care too comment?...

John Sabato · 09-02-2003, 01:23 PM

It's quite simple if you just check his website as I suggested...THOR (Ted Green) is a man of integrity...a scarce commodity in today's marketplace.

Here is the link:

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

Here is a quote from his website and a photo:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I ALWAYS add a rework mark, to alert a potential subsequent buyer that it is no longer an original Luger. It may look original thus the reason for adding the rework mark, to try and prevent any problems with the buyer knowing it is original or not. The small innocuous mark I place on the bottom of the stock lug is to note that this Luger has been reworked and is no longer an original. Really both the buyer and seller benefit from this in the long run. DON'T ASK ME TO OMIT MY REWORK MARK, because I WON'T OMIT IT and I wont argue about it! <hr /></blockquote><a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/thormark.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/thormark.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

policeluger · 09-02-2003, 02:40 PM

we are being side stepped here, so here is the question too Thor...on repair work, that is to say touch up work, such as the Mauser talked about above, do you mark the gun, so it bears a proof mark noting that it was touched up by you ?. Now I know you keep a log of your work, that is not the question. I am not talking about complete re-blue/restoration what ever you want too call it. But on touch up work where the gun can be bolstered sometime down the road by an unethical seller, is this gun somehow marked at time or rework by you....thanks very much.

Edward Tinker · 09-02-2003, 03:21 PM

Howard, I understand where you are curious, but being a gunsmith yourself, and I imagine, not on purpose after you have worked on them, but do you feel you have "fixed" guns that later were sold as bolstered, boosted etc.?

I ask, because your questioning appears to be pointed at Ted, and he makes an attempt to "mark" his work and I would say a huge majority of gunsmiths and gun restorers make no attempt to mark their work?

Ed

jamese · 09-02-2003, 04:20 PM

Ted,
where do you put the mark on say a 1908, with no stock lug?

Just wondering

08-29-2003, 02:52 PM	#21
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	This controversy will never be fully resolved. One thing I have noticed is that many (maybe most) of the DWM Lugers available on the market have been restrawed. This process is within the capabilities of most collectors, although few do it as well as Thor, so many of the early DWMs have been restrawed. Does restrawing disqualify a Luger as a collectable? Maybe . . . . maybe not. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-29-2003, 02:53 PM	#22
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 138 Times in 76 Posts	Ed, I appreciate the point of trying to keep a restored Luger from being sold 10 years from now as a 98% original gun, when it began restoration as a 90% with a problem. What I find objectionable is the default assumption that one's customer intends to falsify the provenance of his restored gun. More importantly, I question the propriety of defacing a historical artefact with the restorer's signature, outside of the conventional armory practice of certifying its safety with proof loads. Signing a mere cosmetic renovation is sheer vanity. I own a 1974 Maserati Bora, produced in a series of 549 cars. My car has a second coat of paint, an engine rebuilt with factory NOS parts, and an aftermarket stainless steel exhaust. I would no more allow anyone working on it to affix his signature to the outcome, than I would tolerate a surgeon so decorate the scars that he leaves on my body. If a handgun is to be treated as a classic artefact, similar rules should apply. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

08-29-2003, 03:33 PM	#23
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Luke: <strong>Does restrawing disqualify a Luger as a collectable? Maybe . . . . maybe not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">As a purest, I would say. What is the difference in re-strawing or rebluing? Percentage of metal refurbished? But, I am not a purest, a toggle pin with the wrong number doesn't make it a collectable loss to me, it might be tarnished in my eyes, but it isn't immediately relegated into "shooter" status. BTW, nice car Michael <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-30-2003, 12:00 AM	#25
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Big Norm, That is a well stated position, but I do have to comment on your remarks about the creation of the Ideal holster. Viggo made enough changes in the design that it is not an exact copy of an Ideal holster so that it could not be termed a fake. It also was a labor of love, allowing him to put his considerable skill into making an item he would enjoy. Money isn't everything. Sometimes pride of accomplishing a difficult project is worth a lot more. Plus, he has a brand new rig that he can play with without fear of damaging an original. I hope I am not coming across as judgemental. I just think highly of both you and Viggo, and I know you didn't intend your comment to be personal. Best regards, Ron A post script...After a good night's sleep I have re-read Norm's comments on the Ideal holster re-creation and realize that read properly, it is not in the least bit critical. It is a complement on the great amount of effort that was required to create such an item. My apologies for thinking otherwise. Rather than edit out my original comments, I would rather take my lumps for leaping to a conclusion. You would think after all these years I would remember the quote that "it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-30-2003, 01:07 PM	#26
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Ron, Big Norm...The same can be said of recreating Luger holsters. I looked for five years before I decided I was never going to own an original Imperial 6" Navy holster and made my own. Ron, Originals like you say, can be fragile and damaged easily. I can use my Navy everyday if I like without fear of damaging a very valuable original. I still can't believe Viggo went to the trouble of re creating an Ideal stock and Holster...A labor of love to the MAX! He must be quite the machinist. One thing to remember is these type of skills are really lost to all but a few people in the World today. The society we live in does not provide for the time and patience to cultivate craftsmen of this caliber and they are rare. It is as close to dying out as one could imagine. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-29-2003, 11:44 PM	#24
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	It really gets messy when you think of a Luger being bolstered or altered by a professional counterfeiter. I would think that a common army Luger like, oh say, a 1915 DWM would gain anything by rebluing and restrawing it. At todays prices, maybe the same could be said of a 1917 artillery. By the time you bought a barrel and the sights (front and rear), bought or altered the rear toggle and then reblued and restrawed, altered the serial numbers, you just have not gained that much, if anything. You have just spent a lot of time creating a fake. On the other hand, altering a 1906 Russian army Luger can result in a big increase in price. Maybe the same could be said of a Kreighoff Luger. What was gained by the famous Ralph Shattuck Krieghoff where the chambered date was altered from one rare Krieghoff to another rare Krieghoff? Just some idiot fooling around. Nazi Era lugers are a different story because small proof marks can change the value of a Luger. Counterfieting a Totenkoff head on a chamber can change the value of a Luger. This is a fine example of how a counterfieter can ruin the collectibility of a fine gun. There is a guy on the forum who spent a lot of time and effort making an Ideal Stock and holster, including grips for a 1900 or 1906 Luger. Gosh, for the time and effort he spent making it, he could have gotten a part time job and bought a real one. When a Luger is restored by a skilled craftsman such as Thor or the guy that I sometimes use, Ken Karsted, then I really have a hard time berating the gun. These people restore a Luger to its original beauty without otherwise alterating the gun to increase its value. What has given restoration a bad name are the hackers and the counterfeiters. Hackers because they permanently have destroyed a historic artifact. Counterfeiters because they have committed a fraud for the purpose of cheating someone. Do-Do on them. This could be a long topic for me because, at heart, I am really a purtist. 99% of my lugers are (I think) original. Even an original (?) Wiemar era navy that I have that has a small cap hinge pin and an army frame. It would have a hard time passing a Tom Armstrongs inspection if it weren't clearly proof marked as a commercial Weimar Era navy Luger. But the two or three Lugers that I had restored would have been religated to the trash heap if I did not do it. I saw the beautiful swans beneath those ugly ducklings. Someday, somebody is going to happy to have them. Ken Karsted did a fabulous job on them. The only comments that I get is that "they are too perfect". Well, enough of my ramblings. Big Norm

08-30-2003, 01:43 PM	#27
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	I went through the same process as Jerry Burney regarding finding an authentic Navy holster which I could actually use. No such luck. Instead I bought a commercial model, and Jerry reworked it to make it look exactly like the originals. Speaking of craftsmen, Jerry's work is really outstanding, and I feel fortunate to have been able to get him to re-create a real Navy holster for me. Thanks again, Jerry. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-31-2003, 12:18 AM	#28
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Knowing Doc Fisher and others that have posted; I am sure these very honest fellows of good character will inform a potential, future owner of their pistols of any rework that has occurred. All we can hope for is for each of us to be honest and true, and hope the next person in line of our pistol's ownership is made of the same stuff. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-31-2003, 01:05 AM	#29
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Pete, I keep track of all reworks I do and if asked a particular variation and serial number I will say yea or nay about if I have reworked it. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-31-2003, 05:21 AM	#30
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Guys, <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> I would say that The Making Of an Ideal Holster at the age of 87 while recovering from A "Radical Nephrectomy to escape Death from Kidney Cancer was more a Rehabilitation Program for me. After all I could'nt have worked that spare job if I had wanted to, Too Old, and Too weak, to work more than a few minutes at a time, when I started. I did it as a challenge to myself, I needed to prove to myself that I was still capable getting back of do things that are not do-able. I think that I made that point, both to myself and to a few others in my locality, who thought that I would never be able to work again. As a retired NACA/NASA Technician/Researcher I can never again surpass those contributions that I made to the Landing of Man on the Moon and the Landing of Spacecraft on Mars ect. Now I'm Only making what small knowledge I gained available to any one who wishes to hear how some of these things were done a lifetime ago. Back when the Age of Science and Machine was beginning to force man to seek answers to the inevitable Grand Questions, How?, When?, Where?, Why? ViggoG

08-31-2003, 07:39 AM	#31
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	My greatest admiration, Viggo. You are quite a man. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-31-2003, 09:41 AM	#32
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron, Jerry and Viggo, You are right about my including Viggo in my comments. I debated about including that paragraph in expressing my frustrations. I compromised myself during my writing by erasing his name but that probably was not good enough. Jerry, I have never critisized you because, even though I have never seen your work, I consider you one of those skilled craftsmen who know what they are doing. As a matter of fact, I have a few artillery holster rigs that I think I will be sending to you sometime. Its just that sometimes I see such terrible butchering of guns by amateurs just to make $25 more on a gun or even just to be able to sell it that I get real upset and I have to let off some steam. I bought a navy Luger off of a guy that I don't like once for $1300. The guy I bought it off of probably paid less than that at an auction. That was a low price even a few years ago. I saw no pitting, the bore was good and the gun was all original. I turned it over to Ken Karsted and he did a miracle on it. He turned that pigs ear into a fine purse. I have shown that gun to the guy who sold it to me just to rub his nose in it. What a change in his attitude! I have shown it to other collectors during discussions about restorations and I now know that I should not feel any shame about doing it. That gun was considered junk when I bought it and evenually it would have vanished. I consider that gun a treasure now. Someday, someone else is going to own it and they too are going to consider it a treasure. Now don't get me wrong. I very much do think that Ed Tinker is right in his comments. We are very much closer than we are apart in our philosophy. I wish that I could show the above mentioned navy to Ed over a few very cold beers. Certain guns should not be touched up or restored. These guns would generally be thought of as the rarer and more expensive Lugers. Maybe even the Nazi Era and contract Lugers where marks mean more than on Imperial Era Lugers. Even the guns that are restored should be done by professionals who realize that THE major part of restoring is in the prep work. An absolute minimal amount of metal should be removed (if any) and no marks should be added or enhanced. THEN you consider the type of bluing to use. Big Norm

09-01-2003, 12:24 AM	#33
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Luke and Norm, Thanks Guys, Perhaps I should have said it a bit differently. My intent in my post was not to seek praise or to be chastising of others. In my long winded way I was trying to say that, Everything has attributes that appear quite similar or very different depending on how you choose to look at them. The elephant is in some ways similar to a Luger Pistol, Depending on how you look at them. Why are you looking, Who is holding, Why is he holding, and the most important, What is the function of the end you viewing? ViggoG

09-01-2003, 02:15 AM	#34
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Viggo, you are a real gentleman. I am sorry that I implicated you while making a statement of principle. I remember that I could have used many other examples just as well that would have served the purpose even better. But I got lazy and used you. I am normally a happy go lucky sort of guy and I often hear things about wrong doers in the gun world. While it is a learning experience for me, its frustating to hear what some people will do to make a fast buck on a gun that I like so much.

09-01-2003, 02:07 PM	#35
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Norm, No apology needed, I took no offense by your post. I too am disgusted by the criminal acts of some persons in altering anything to appear to be something that it is not. It makes it rough on the experienced as well as the novice. It is a well known fact that the criminal mind works in strange ways, Con-Artists are for the most part very intelligent people who spend more time and energy working the Con than they would use if they applied themselves to a ligitimate business. And to top it off they almost invariably make less in return, not including jail time. I can understand why they do it, They like the challenge of something for nothing. Its the same thought process that drives some persons to habitually gamble, a sort of high when you are winning. I'm sure glad that most people are of the honest variety. ViggoG

09-02-2003, 11:44 AM	#36
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	John S. you stated that ALL Thors reworks get his mark "NO exceptions"...care too comment?...

09-02-2003, 01:23 PM	#37
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	It's quite simple if you just check his website as I suggested...THOR (Ted Green) is a man of integrity...a scarce commodity in today's marketplace. Here is the link: http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Here is a quote from his website and a photo: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> I ALWAYS add a rework mark, to alert a potential subsequent buyer that it is no longer an original Luger. It may look original thus the reason for adding the rework mark, to try and prevent any problems with the buyer knowing it is original or not. The small innocuous mark I place on the bottom of the stock lug is to note that this Luger has been reworked and is no longer an original. Really both the buyer and seller benefit from this in the long run. DON'T ASK ME TO OMIT MY REWORK MARK, because I WON'T OMIT IT and I wont argue about it! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/thormark.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/thormark.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-02-2003, 02:40 PM	#38
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	we are being side stepped here, so here is the question too Thor...on repair work, that is to say touch up work, such as the Mauser talked about above, do you mark the gun, so it bears a proof mark noting that it was touched up by you ?. Now I know you keep a log of your work, that is not the question. I am not talking about complete re-blue/restoration what ever you want too call it. But on touch up work where the gun can be bolstered sometime down the road by an unethical seller, is this gun somehow marked at time or rework by you....thanks very much.

09-02-2003, 03:21 PM	#39
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Howard, I understand where you are curious, but being a gunsmith yourself, and I imagine, not on purpose after you have worked on them, but do you feel you have "fixed" guns that later were sold as bolstered, boosted etc.? I ask, because your questioning appears to be pointed at Ted, and he makes an attempt to "mark" his work and I would say a huge majority of gunsmiths and gun restorers make no attempt to mark their work? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-02-2003, 04:20 PM	#40
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Ted, where do you put the mark on say a 1908, with no stock lug? Just wondering __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception