Breech Block Failure 1916/1920 Erfurt - Page 2

grantman · 01-18-2021, 08:53 PM

Wh at typically causes this; metal fatigue? Also, what would be the most likely cause of pierced primers; striker spring?

G.T. · 01-19-2021, 04:17 AM

Hi Grant, the two most common is, excessive headspace, and/or a deformed firing pin tip. (corroded, sharp point/edge) I'd say that covers about 99% of the pierce primer problems with factory ammo... best, GT

Vlim · 01-19-2021, 08:40 AM

The metallurgy of Erfurt parts also wasn't as good as DWM's. And even DWM had consistency issues with the steel they used.

Personally, I wouldn't shoot an Erfurt at all.

STEINBVG · 01-19-2021, 09:52 AM

If i understand correctly metal fatigue accumulates with multiple bangs over period of time, correct? The shooting/use are the main culprits.

Is there any damaging structural chemical/physical process in an old gun's metal [ or any metal/alloy] even without any shooting or physical use?

LET'S SAY THE SAME METALLURGY, FORGING , TOOLING, MACHINNING- THE IDENTICAL 2 GUNS MADE A 100 YEARS APART. NEVER SHOT. IS THE OLDER ONE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK SIMPLY FROM AGING?

TY

sdmark777 · 01-19-2021, 10:43 AM

I got this 1937 S42 Mauser in 1982, it already had the breech block failure. All matching except for mag and grips, with a rough bore. It is my "shooter". Only one of my lugers I ever shoot.

spangy · 01-19-2021, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEINBVG

LET'S SAY THE SAME METALLURGY, FORGING , TOOLING, MACHINNING- THE IDENTICAL 2 GUNS MADE A 100 YEARS APART. NEVER SHOT. IS THE OLDER ONE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK SIMPLY FROM AGING?

In theory the older gun is more susceptible to breakage due to the fact that metal crystalizes over age but in practice the amount of possible crystallization over 100 years would be considered negligible.

Allen Brett · 01-19-2021, 02:26 PM

I shoot my Lugers as none are family heirlooms, specialty or mint. I have a WWI DWM that the GI had nickel plated with all numbers matching brought back that I purchased from the family and it functions just fine. I am the one that started this post and I plan on replacing the breech block and shooting the Erfurt on occasion is that a bad idea? I have a message and an e-mail into the "lugerdoc@charter.net" to see if he has one that matches the last 2 digits of the serial number. If he does not have one or I do not hear back I will either purchase a new one with no marks or a used non matching I have seen and replace the damaged one. if the majority of members suggest I not shoot it then it is no good to me and I guess I will sell it?

Vlim · 01-19-2021, 02:50 PM

I wonder if repairing by micro welding would work.
Technology has advanced quite a bit.

HerrKaiser · 01-19-2021, 03:12 PM

I have an all matching Erfurt LP.08 as a shooter, but it has been refinished. Even then, when I shoot my shooter Mauser P.08 (matching frame and upper receiver with mismatched Mauser toggle train) it just feels more solid and sturdy in the metallurgy.

George Anderson · 01-19-2021, 03:44 PM

I keep two complete toggle trains in my gun safe, one a P08 and the other an LP08. Anytime I shoot one of my Lugers I first exchange the toggle train.

spangy · 01-19-2021, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

I wonder if repairing by micro welding would work.
Technology has advanced quite a bit.

I'm wondering if there would be an issue with hardening Vlim, would you heat the entire area and then quench or ????

Vlim · 01-19-2021, 05:14 PM

Micro or laser welding should not affect the hardness of the surrounding metal as far as I'm aware.

G.T. · 01-19-2021, 05:49 PM

I would have it TIG welded maybe partially submerge/bury it in something to reduce the heat and perform as a sink..

Then re-machine, and re-temper/draw back and then refinish...

...GT

Karl · 01-19-2021, 06:41 PM

I have a few observations as an amateur that may not be relevant. First of all, I am not familiar with Blazer ammo but generally, in my experience, newly-manufactured ammo has a brass finish primer, like the bass case. These primers are white, like reloads. Is this new ammo or reloaded ammo?

Second, I agree that the primer strikes seem to be unusually deep (see especially the top round in the photo with the breech block from the rear).

I also note from the photo with the breech block face that the striker hole is off center and seems to be “cratered,” raised around the hole. Is the breech block surface flat?

Finally, in looking at the spent brass, most of the brass has the distinctive neck mark from the stepped chamber of the Luger, but several rounds do not seem to have this mark, suggesting that the round did not fully expand into the chamber. Perhaps a sign of firing out of battery?

KFS

ithacaartist · 01-19-2021, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

I wonder if repairing by micro welding would work.
Technology has advanced quite a bit.

It's likely. But it would need to be cleaned up afterwards, and refinished. It comes down to the results of a personal cost/benefit/happiness analysis!

Jim French repaired a Zamak frame for one of my Ermas. It might be worth getting a quote. jmfmicroweld@earthlink.net

Allen Brett · 01-19-2021, 09:22 PM

Karl,

I used factory ammo purchased at a chain sporting goods store about one month ago.

Poor photos the primer strikes are no deeper than what my Glock, Colt, Walther P-38 and so on spit out.

The breech face and the firing pin opening are the same as my 1916 DWM and are not damaged.

I guess I'm not sure how the pistol would fire "out of battery" but I am willing to listen. I took the pistol apart, cleaned it and inspected every part before I shot it and there was not any damage at that point. I am the only one that shot the pistol and didn't notice any issues when firing it. I only found the damage upon returning to my home when I went to clean the pistol. I am in agreement that it may have just been a breech that had weakened or something else.

DonVoigt · 01-19-2021, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Micro or laser welding should not affect the hardness of the surrounding metal as far as I'm aware.

Sure, the welding is the easy part.
Having the right size cutter to recut the extractor slot, and then undercut the grooves for the "wings" is the tough part.

I don't think there is any way it could be economical- unless for a really valuable pistol; but then, why would it have been shot.

Just replace the breech block and move on.

No need to look for reasons related to the ammo or other, the darn block was just worn out, old, crystalized, or had a manufacturing defect or steel problem from the beginning and "finally" gave up after 100 years of use. JMHO.

spangy · 01-19-2021, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Just replace the breech block and move on.

No need to look for reasons related to the ammo or other, the darn block was just worn out, old, crystalized, or had a manufacturing defect or steel problem from the beginning and "finally" gave up after 100 years of use. JMHO.

After spending 1/2 day researching the pros and cons of micro or laser welding and their affects on gun metal and finish the only economical and simple solution is 'replace the breech block' ... done and dusted and returned to service in an afternoon.

Lugerdoc · 01-20-2021, 02:29 PM

When you do install a different BB, be sure to check the head spacing, as that may have caused your current problem. TH

mrerick · 01-22-2021, 11:15 AM

In particular, the toggle train is, in fact, a long series of parts with axle pins holding the train together.

Wear at any of these axle pin points will contribute to headspace problems, and actually be additive.

I once had a LP08 that kept breaking axle pins between the breech block and the middle toggle. I finally solved the problem by replacing that axle pin with an oversized pin (by .5mm). which lengthened the toggle train and stabilized it.

Check and see how much play (front to back) is in the toggle train. That could have been the initial problem that let gas bypass the cartridge oblation ring and enter the breech area. Remember that the 9mm Luger cartridge body is slightly conical to aid in extraction. It doesn't take much toggle train looseness to contribute to a headspace problem and allow this to happen.

Something was loose enough for the gas to bypass the cartridge body before it came completely out of lock. If it didn't come through a pierced primer hole, it had to travel some route around the cartridge case.

As you replace the breech block, consider that the other two axle pins may be holding worn middle or rear toggles in the train as well.

01-19-2021, 04:17 AM	#22
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Pin issues Hi Grant, the two most common is, excessive headspace, and/or a deformed firing pin tip. (corroded, sharp point/edge) I'd say that covers about 99% of the pierce primer problems with factory ammo... best, GT

01-19-2021, 09:52 AM	#24
STEINBVG User Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: NEW JERSEY Posts: 143 Thanks: 117 Thanked 176 Times in 70 Posts	Never shot identical lugers built 100 years apart? If i understand correctly metal fatigue accumulates with multiple bangs over period of time, correct? The shooting/use are the main culprits. Is there any damaging structural chemical/physical process in an old gun's metal [ or any metal/alloy] even without any shooting or physical use? LET'S SAY THE SAME METALLURGY, FORGING , TOOLING, MACHINNING- THE IDENTICAL 2 GUNS MADE A 100 YEARS APART. NEVER SHOT. IS THE OLDER ONE MORE LIKELY TO BREAK SIMPLY FROM AGING? TY

01-19-2021, 10:43 AM	#25
sdmark777 User Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 281 Thanks: 656 Thanked 663 Times in 169 Posts	I got this 1937 S42 Mauser in 1982, it already had the breech block failure. All matching except for mag and grips, with a rough bore. It is my "shooter". Only one of my lugers I ever shoot. Attached Images

01-19-2021, 03:12 PM	#29
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	I have an all matching Erfurt LP.08 as a shooter, but it has been refinished. Even then, when I shoot my shooter Mauser P.08 (matching frame and upper receiver with mismatched Mauser toggle train) it just feels more solid and sturdy in the metallurgy. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

01-19-2021, 05:49 PM	#33
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	just me, but.... I would have it TIG welded maybe partially submerge/bury it in something to reduce the heat and perform as a sink.. Then re-machine, and re-temper/draw back and then refinish......GT

01-18-2021, 08:53 PM	#21
grantman User Join Date: May 2019 Location: Northern Idaho Posts: 79 Thanks: 2 Thanked 34 Times in 22 Posts	Wh at typically causes this; metal fatigue? Also, what would be the most likely cause of pierced primers; striker spring?

01-19-2021, 08:40 AM	#23
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	The metallurgy of Erfurt parts also wasn't as good as DWM's. And even DWM had consistency issues with the steel they used. Personally, I wouldn't shoot an Erfurt at all.

01-19-2021, 02:26 PM	#27
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	I shoot my Lugers as none are family heirlooms, specialty or mint. I have a WWI DWM that the GI had nickel plated with all numbers matching brought back that I purchased from the family and it functions just fine. I am the one that started this post and I plan on replacing the breech block and shooting the Erfurt on occasion is that a bad idea? I have a message and an e-mail into the "lugerdoc@charter.net" to see if he has one that matches the last 2 digits of the serial number. If he does not have one or I do not hear back I will either purchase a new one with no marks or a used non matching I have seen and replace the damaged one. if the majority of members suggest I not shoot it then it is no good to me and I guess I will sell it?

01-19-2021, 02:50 PM	#28
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	I wonder if repairing by micro welding would work. Technology has advanced quite a bit.

01-19-2021, 03:44 PM	#30
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I keep two complete toggle trains in my gun safe, one a P08 and the other an LP08. Anytime I shoot one of my Lugers I first exchange the toggle train.

01-19-2021, 05:14 PM	#32
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Micro or laser welding should not affect the hardness of the surrounding metal as far as I'm aware.

01-19-2021, 06:41 PM	#34
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 239 Times in 111 Posts	I have a few observations as an amateur that may not be relevant. First of all, I am not familiar with Blazer ammo but generally, in my experience, newly-manufactured ammo has a brass finish primer, like the bass case. These primers are white, like reloads. Is this new ammo or reloaded ammo? Second, I agree that the primer strikes seem to be unusually deep (see especially the top round in the photo with the breech block from the rear). I also note from the photo with the breech block face that the striker hole is off center and seems to be “cratered,” raised around the hole. Is the breech block surface flat? Finally, in looking at the spent brass, most of the brass has the distinctive neck mark from the stepped chamber of the Luger, but several rounds do not seem to have this mark, suggesting that the round did not fully expand into the chamber. Perhaps a sign of firing out of battery? KFS

01-19-2021, 09:22 PM	#36
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Karl, I used factory ammo purchased at a chain sporting goods store about one month ago. Poor photos the primer strikes are no deeper than what my Glock, Colt, Walther P-38 and so on spit out. The breech face and the firing pin opening are the same as my 1916 DWM and are not damaged. I guess I'm not sure how the pistol would fire "out of battery" but I am willing to listen. I took the pistol apart, cleaned it and inspected every part before I shot it and there was not any damage at that point. I am the only one that shot the pistol and didn't notice any issues when firing it. I only found the damage upon returning to my home when I went to clean the pistol. I am in agreement that it may have just been a breech that had weakened or something else.

01-20-2021, 02:29 PM	#39
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	When you do install a different BB, be sure to check the head spacing, as that may have caused your current problem. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-22-2021, 11:15 AM	#40
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	In particular, the toggle train is, in fact, a long series of parts with axle pins holding the train together. Wear at any of these axle pin points will contribute to headspace problems, and actually be additive. I once had a LP08 that kept breaking axle pins between the breech block and the middle toggle. I finally solved the problem by replacing that axle pin with an oversized pin (by .5mm). which lengthened the toggle train and stabilized it. Check and see how much play (front to back) is in the toggle train. That could have been the initial problem that let gas bypass the cartridge oblation ring and enter the breech area. Remember that the 9mm Luger cartridge body is slightly conical to aid in extraction. It doesn't take much toggle train looseness to contribute to a headspace problem and allow this to happen. Something was loose enough for the gas to bypass the cartridge body before it came completely out of lock. If it didn't come through a pierced primer hole, it had to travel some route around the cartridge case. As you replace the breech block, consider that the other two axle pins may be holding worn middle or rear toggles in the train as well. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.