Reproduction Snail Drum - progress

[spacecoast]

As G.T. knows, I just put my order in at Numrich for the "GT Custom Edition" snail drum and loader set, as well as a loading strut directly from G.T.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/980980.htm

I'm really looking forward to getting these and trying them out on my Artillery rig, 9mm and .30 cal shooters!

[DonVoigt]

Just to echo what GT says, if your luger does not function reliably, 100% with 8 round mags and your ammo, then you will have issues with a drum- doesn't matter if the drum is an original or a GT re-work/improved version.

The repro drum from Numrich, in its first iteration, before GT- would not work most of the time.

The fit of the magazine tube part of the drum to the luger will be an issue you have to deal with.
If you are fortunate you will have a normal to + size mag well- if yours happens to be a -(small) mag well- the drum may not go into the luger and fit as it should.

[spacecoast]

The fit of the magazine tube part of the drum to the luger will be an issue you have to deal with.
If you are fortunate you will have a normal to + size mag well- if yours happens to be a -(small) mag well- the drum may not go into the luger and fit as it should.

I'll definitely report back on this aspect, as well as a range report as soon as I'm able to get it out to the range. My shooters are (or are based on) a late-war DWM, a late-war Erfurt and an alphabet commercial.

[spacecoast]

Good news - my snail drum shipped Friday and should be here Wednesday.

[G.T.]

Hi Mark! Your loading strut when out earlier this week as well.. You should soon have the whole package! Proceed deliberately, but slowly, and I hope for your successful drum operation and experience! Remember, I'm right here if problems are encountered... If you get all your stuff, drop me a note and we'll chat about procedure and such... best t all, til....lat'r....GT...

[spacecoast]

GT -

I received the loading strut today in good order. It looks like a well made piece of hardware - I'm sure its placement and function will make more sense to me when I receive the snail drum itself. C'mon Fedex!!!

[G.T.]

Hi Mark, yup! It'll be pretty straight forward.. you just install the cross pin assembly, then, you place the strut top end on the protruding point, and adjust the Delrin block for the best fit on the drum bottom right ahead of the cross bolt... (on flat between cross bolt area and drum) and tighten the allen head bolt and lock nut to lock it in position... you will find it snaps on and off quite easily one you get the feel for it.... best to all, til...lat'r...GT

[spacecoast]

G.T. -

I've been reading earlier in the thread and looking at Don's pictures, and it appears that the strut stays attached to the loading tool once it is has been attached, correct? Then, the Delrin block snaps over the drum to hold the assembly rigid once the loading tool is in place and while the loading is in progress. Hopefully I have that right.

I should have a reading for you tomorrow evening on how the drum fits my three shooters (or my non-shooters, for that matter) and hope to get it out to the range this weekend.

[G.T.]

That's what I was trying to say, but got lost in the jumble! You are correct... picture tells all... keep us in the loop! Good Luck! til....lat'r....GT BTW, one more thing, if the drum jams in a feeding manner, it is best to stop, clear, and remove the drum and unload and start over completely! .... WW white box to start with! Go get'em!...GT...

[DonVoigt]

No,
the strut does NOT stay attached to the tool.

Only the small boss is added to the tool.

It is way simpler than it sounds, wait till you have it and it will be clear.

I find it easy to attach after it is adjusted to your loader/magazine combination if you place the block under the arm of the drum and slide the other end onto the boss on the loader. Remove the same way.
If you want to over do it, you can adjust the fit each time!

[G.T.]

Sorry guys! I missed that first part about staying attached! Don, is 100% correct in that it just snaps on and just pulls off, once adjusted to the drum you need not make any further adjustments unless you want to occasionally tighten the block.. The block is made of black Delrin on purpose to be sacrificial and will get beat up a bit from on and off... but the guys who have them will attest, it makes the whole set up much more stable during the loading process!! ........ best to you all, til...lat'r....GT

[spacecoast]

Good news...

I was home this morning waiting to take my cat to a veterinary appointment and the snail drum package arrived. I had a quick chance to see how it fits in my shooters and it fits great (goes all the way in with an audible click when the mag release locks) in both my 1918 DWM shooter and my 1918 Erfurt frame that's been paired with a 1917 DWM receiver and artillery barrel.

The gun that doesn't want to readily accept the drum mag is my Alphabet commercial .30 cal (k suffix). It barely starts into the frame before it binds, so using the drum with .30 cal ammo may not be an option (for me) after all.

I have a number of other non-shooting Lugers, both 7.65 and 9mm, that I will try the drum in and report back about fitment.

Hopefully I'll have time tonight to configure the loading strut and learn how to use the loader. I was surprised at how heavy the drum is, by the way. A very solid unit to say the least.

[DonVoigt]

If you really want to try the drum with 7,65mm; just switch your upper to a frame that the drum fits!

Another "trick" to the loader, and I believe it is covered in the original manual of which you should have a copy in the box, is to load the first two rounds by hand- they require pressing the spring loaded follower stud in, while loading a round, then you have to manipulate the follower/round to get the second round in. When that is done, place the loader on the magazine, put the strut in place, and load more rounds, up to a total of 32.

Of course the drum is wound and the winder latched, before starting the loading process.

After the drum is loaded, remove the strut and loader, release the winder arm from its latch(slowly, and keep it under firm control). Tap the drum with your hand, a rubber mallet, or on a rug or something to "settle" the rounds in the magazine- this is important. Then if you are not going to use the drum right away, re-latch the arm in its slot to release the significant pressure from the guide lips on the drum.

[PhilOhio]

Guys, I ran across this thread last night, as I've been searching for people who know about original (and of course repro) drum feed issues. I've owned an original for about 50 years, never managed to stuff more than three rounds into it, and decided now is the time.

So about five years ago, I began hand making a welded-up loader, based on all the photos I could find; but to my design. Yesterday I finally got there, and the prototype works, but I have better ideas for a few minor improvements with the next one. And no, no pictures yet.

First, a suggestion. Friction is our enemy. Several of you who have spent hundreds of hours on snail drums say that bullets are the major source of that friction. Polishing and lubing are very important, but has anybody tried using a snail drum to feed powder coated bullets of the correct, original German military design shape? It has only been in recent years that we could buy a mold to cast these, from Lee.

I have found that my cast bullets of this shape (a Lee 133 grain mold), loaded to the correct overall length (OAL) eliminate just about all Luger feed and function problems, if powder, pressure, and velocity values are also kept to what I think were the WW-II German standards.

I've recently started experimenting with powder coating my own bullets, just for fun. They cut friction way down, create no smoke, permit higher velocity without leading, and are clean to handle. And they are inexpensive to buy from the many commercial sources. Again just for fun, I've even run off a batch of 1200 with both Harbor Freight Red powder and Alox on top of that. It's probably not possible to make a slicker bullet than this, unless you coat it with Teflon.

This is all theoretical, since I still need to get my OEM drum slicked up inside, remove and replace the last of the 100-year-old factory grease, finish the final version of my loader, and see how it runs in my stocked 1917 Artillery Luger with fine tune sights. I've had some of that gear for half a century and it has not yet all come together on the range.

I don't know much about drums, but mine has a "B" over an "N" on it, and a six-digit serial number. Would that be what folks refer to as a Bing?

[DonVoigt]

Phil,
It ain't the bullets, but the cartridges and the amount of friction that 32 of them create. Only the very "end point" of the bullet contacts the drum anyway.

Other than the challenge of building your own loader, why do it? Buy a repro, they work fine.

You are winding and locking the spring on your drum before loading? right?
You have taken it apart and cleaned and re-lubricated it also?

[PhilOhio]

Don,

In the 5 pages of thread I read, somebody was referring to all the friction the "bullets" create. It didn't seem to make total sense to me, either, but I thought maybe somebody here knew more about these drums than I do, which is very little. I think he meant "cartridges".

Availability of the repro drums and loaders has been a sometimes thing. I tried for more than 30 years to find a loader and couldn't, except for worn out originals at $1,500 a pop or so. Still retaining some of my sanity, I didn't buy one. But I collected a lot of pictures and could see pretty much how they work, except for the small part actually pushing the cartridge.

A couple years ago, I started making one, and almost finished, before giving up to the distractions of another project.

A week ago, I got out the pieces and started again, finishing it to the point I could load about 28 rounds and see that my concept was O.K., except that I saw how to do it a little bit better.

So this evening I went to work with the welder, milling machine, Mr. Dremel's wonderful invention, and made a completely new handle and lever link assembly. It works slick as a whistle, but is a little over-engineered. But it's just a hobby, for fun.

Yes, I wind the heavy spring first. And yes, I then hand insert two rounds. I'm thinking about designing a little widget for the loader so you don't have to do that. But again, only for the challenge and fun.

Non-shooters or non-Luger people would think this is all absurd, wasting time on a loader for a drum type which never had much real purpose except on an early German sub gun. And the loader is dangerous to use. I'll bet some young German farm boys lost eyes and suffered other injuries trying to crank that terrible folding lever. That's how engineers learn what not to do.

Yes, I did have the drum apart years ago, and cleaned out the grease. It was pristine inside. I will put fresh lube in it when I am ready to actually shoot.

I'm guessing that the shake and recoil from firing a shot is an essential part of the design for making these things work, when they do. But these drums were about Step One in the design of high capacity magazines for weapons firing pistol cartridges. They learned a lot about how not to do it.

The materials used were very good, and it's amazing how the springs and metal are still fully functional and up-to-spec after 100 years this year.

The other purpose? Our Second Amendment promoting friend Senator Chuck Schumer would say, "It's great; keeps PhilOhio off the streets."

[DonVoigt]

Well said Phil, nice summary.
And for sure, the recoil is important to the function of the drum; you can discern that from manually unloading it- if you don't give it a little shake or jerk, the rounds won't "come up" to the feed lips.

Many folks frequently call cartridges - "bullets"- I'm guilty of it myself at times.

[PhilOhio]

Thanks Don. Your comment on cartridges perhaps ordinarily not coming up to the lips during manual tinkering is going to save me a lot of time trying to correct something that probably can't be changed.

I had noticed this earlier, and then surmised that maybe it wouldn't do it in actual use. This sort of thing has been all but eliminated in later designs of just about all high cap mags.

The more I study this OEM drum, the more I am amazed that they got it to work at all, and that they fielded so many. That spring in the main drum is something that might not be believed by people who have not actually handled one and tried to compress it. It really would be interesting to know all the injuries it has caused over the last 100 years. If that skinny lever gets away from you, a lot of force is unleashed. I hope I don't become the latest casualty, but I don't plan to use it much, once I know it works.

In truth, the snail drum is about as useful as a belt feed conversion on a Baby Browning. But it's just so neat.

[DonVoigt]

Phil- when they work- they are awesome! And I don't use that word often.
I have four that work very well, though after hours of work by myself and GT!

The reason a million or so were made for WWI was the "artillery" luger and drum for the Stosstruppen. The first time you fire 32 rounds from a correctly functioning snail drum on a stocked L P08, one understands the use and reason for its being.

PS- Gloves are a good idea when messing with the drum, I've rubbed blisters on my hand from loading and unloading.

[PhilOhio]

Don,

I have a near mint 1917 artillery with fine tune sights, OEM holster and stock rig, new repro of same, another original plain stock, and several other Lugers. I know the pistol is very accurate with the stocks, but I look forward to using it with the drum, which makes it accurate times 32. And the weight will help. All I need now is warmer weather.

This is an inherently accurate cartridge, with the right load, and I have a bunch of guns firing it, including an MP5. Talk about accuracy...

There has to be some ideal way of holding or supporting that drum while winding the spring, but I haven't found it yet. I imagine the manual says something about it.

It's hard to comprehend that all this equipment is 100 years old and still so functional, in a fairly modern way. We have not advanced all that far. But the same applies to John Browning's 1911 Colt design.