Couple of questions - Page 2

mrerick · 02-24-2014, 01:12 PM

Chris, I think that the damage was occurring at the rear of the receiver where the rear toggle can contact the back of the receiver.

Marc

Sieger · 02-24-2014, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Interesting thread, I did not know the breech block can slap the inside of the gun if the springs are weak. What sort of wear and tear could you visibly see if this was a problem? Might be a good idea to start checking for such damage before you buy a shooter grade gun!

-Chris

Chris,

Yes, this is a very good wear (abuse) indicator and should be checked, if possible, before a Luger is purchased.

After disassembly, take a look at the uppermost part of the rear frame. There you will see where the breach block can contact the frame at its uppermost rear position.

The breach block is hardened, but the frame is not. Where the breach block contacts the frame, there may be peen marks. If these marks are deep or disfiguring (something you can catch your fingernail on), you know that the hot stuff has been fired through the pistol.

Normally, if proper ammo is used, these marks will be only shadows in the bluing, if that, nothing more. Again, a proper load will not slam these parts together; causing the aforementioned, deep, disfiguring peen marks.

I hope this helps.

Sieger

sheepherder · 02-24-2014, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Interesting thread, I did not know the breech block can slap the inside of the gun if the springs are weak. What sort of wear and tear could you visibly see if this was a problem?

This sort...

Also note the right toggle ramp...

(This is the 1900AE at the extreme left in post #10 on preceding page)

Curss · 02-24-2014, 05:48 PM

Seems my .30 commercial has similar wear, but on BOTH ramps. Is there a difference between the 1900 and 1908 toggle ramps?

Curss · 02-24-2014, 07:49 PM

Perhaps I should change my spring as well. I have the recoil calibration pack from Wolff Gunsprings, what mainspring should I use? #36, #38, or #40? Is there modifications needed for the appropriate spring?

ithacaartist · 02-24-2014, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Perhaps I should change my spring as well. I have the recoil calibration pack from Wolff Gunsprings, what mainspring should I use? #36, #38, or #40? Is there modifications needed for the appropriate spring?

Start with the standard, the 38#. No modifications necessary. You may notice that they are progressively more difficult to compress.

danielsand · 02-24-2014, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Perhaps I should change my spring as well. I have the recoil calibration pack from Wolff Gunsprings, what mainspring should I use? #36, #38, or #40? Is there modifications needed for the appropriate spring?

If you ARE going to shoot this pistol, you owe it to yourself, and all the people that WILL own it after you, to have a fresh set of springs in it. And why not? the springs are rediculously cheap, and the pistol is valuable,...simple logic.

Curss · 02-24-2014, 08:07 PM

I agree danielsand!

I've read that the springs for .30 Luger and for 9MM are different, how can you tell which one is for which?

Curss · 02-25-2014, 11:41 AM

Tried both #38 and #36 mainsprings, both ended up with cartridges nose up. I don't think the #40 spring will work as the original spring that works feels lighter. Magazines an ammo don't seem to be an issue, as the old spring worked for both.

Any idea's on what to do from here?

Sieger · 02-25-2014, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Tried both #38 and #36 mainsprings, both ended up with cartridges nose up. I don't think the #40 spring will work as the original spring that works feels lighter. Magazines an ammo don't seem to be an issue, as the old spring worked for both.

Any idea's on what to do from here?

Hi,

Please explain ..."both ended up with cartridges nose up".

Were the cartridges jammed between the breach block and feeding ramp? If so, this is your typical "Luger Jam" caused by several factors.

Sieger

stressed · 02-25-2014, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

I agree danielsand!

I've read that the springs for .30 Luger and for 9MM are different, how can you tell which one is for which?

.30 is 19 turn 9mm is 22 turn (WWII)

As for your feeding issues, have you tried another mag?

danielsand · 02-25-2014, 03:20 PM

Mainspring does not have much effect on feeding. Correct me if I'm wrong Gents, but the weak mainspring will not absorb the recoil, and the pistol will slam in the back, peening the frame, and/or ramps. Too stiff mainspring will cause the weapon to "short stroke", and the fresh cartrige will not be picked up from the mag. Also,....too strong spring might not allow the breech to travel far enough for the empty case to hit the ejector with sufficient force to be ejected, thus it will stay "hooked" on the extractor, and travel back misaligned, causing the classic "stove pipe".

"Nose up" (if I understand you correctly), is the loaded cartridge jammed between the breech block and the chamber? (failure to chamber)

That's usually caused by the weak mag spring, damaged mag lips, or damaged follower.

Try changing the mag, and forget about the mainspring for now. I would also inspect the frame rails/bolt rails, and check for burrs, damage, being tweaked, and such. Put the upper on the frame (don't hook it), and slide it gently back and forth to feel for binding.

Curss · 02-25-2014, 04:02 PM

There is a tiny bur in one spot waaaay in the back on the rails. Something to add, changing the striker spring to one of the extra power striker springs improved the function of the gun. However, I still have problems feeding. Using a #36 mainspring I can shoot the gun with its original magazine and a mec-gar magazine, but sometimes it won't activate the hold open latch. Before I changed the striker spring, the gun would't not feed properly during live fire but would chamber if I manually pulled the toggles. I am also using Fiocchi .30 Luger, both FMJ amd semi-jacketed soft points.

Curss · 02-25-2014, 04:29 PM

As for the feeding issue itself, the the round ends up nose first before entering the chamber; so yes, failure to chamber.

Sieger · 02-26-2014, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

As for the feeding issue itself, the the round ends up nose first before entering the chamber; so yes, failure to chamber.

Curss,

I'd stick with the 38 pounder, but would replace or rework the magazine, as the new recoil spring is now outrunning it.

This is a very typical and common problem when a Luger's springs are out of timing.

If you can find one, the older style Mec-Gars were nice.

Search GT, our resident magazine expert, in this forum and he will fix you up nicely.

Sieger

Curss · 02-26-2014, 02:25 AM

I will contact him when my next pay check comes in. I do have a Mec-gar mag that I purchased a few years ago, but I do think it needs work. The gun came with an original mag of some sort, I'll see if he can't rework that one as well.

So, try to stick with the #38, don't modify it, and get new mag springs. Then retest!

rhuff · 02-26-2014, 03:43 PM

GT has had some special Luger mag springs made up for just him. He installs them and says that they do not lose their power anywhere near like the original/aftermarket mag springs. Many of us on this forum have had GT "tuneup" mags for us with excellent results. When it come to Luger mags, GT is your man hands down!!

Curss · 02-27-2014, 06:00 PM

Are they extra power springs? And should I have the original mag reworked?

Sieger · 02-27-2014, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curss

Are they extra power springs? And should I have the original mag reworked?

Hi,

Yes, there are extra power springs.

For specific question, your best bet is to contact GT. He will answer your questions and arrange to fix your problem.

Sieger

Curss · 03-10-2014, 06:07 PM

Ok,

Finally got my magazines back from G.T., and so far no improvement. With the original magazine in place, and the #38 mainspring in place, every other shot ends up as a failure to feed. The Mec-Gar had similar results.

With the #40 mainspring, the gun fails to eject I believe because it is not traveling far enough to reach the ejector. Did not matter which magazine was used.

The #36 mainspring gave no improvement as well with either Mec-Gar nor original magazine.

Perhaps I should clip one of the new mainsprings down to 19 coils? Which one should I start with?

Jim Solomon's tool got a good exercise in mainspring changes. With a little practice, I've gotten darn good at the mainspring swap.

02-24-2014, 01:12 PM	#21
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Chris, I think that the damage was occurring at the rear of the receiver where the rear toggle can contact the back of the receiver. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-24-2014, 08:07 PM	#28
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	I agree danielsand! I've read that the springs for .30 Luger and for 9MM are different, how can you tell which one is for which? Last edited by Curss; 02-24-2014 at 10:27 PM. Reason: Clarification

02-24-2014, 05:48 PM	#24
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Seems my .30 commercial has similar wear, but on BOTH ramps. Is there a difference between the 1900 and 1908 toggle ramps?

02-24-2014, 07:49 PM	#25
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Perhaps I should change my spring as well. I have the recoil calibration pack from Wolff Gunsprings, what mainspring should I use? #36, #38, or #40? Is there modifications needed for the appropriate spring?

02-25-2014, 11:41 AM	#29
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Tried both #38 and #36 mainsprings, both ended up with cartridges nose up. I don't think the #40 spring will work as the original spring that works feels lighter. Magazines an ammo don't seem to be an issue, as the old spring worked for both. Any idea's on what to do from here?

02-25-2014, 03:20 PM	#32
danielsand User Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: SoCal Posts: 137 Thanks: 52 Thanked 100 Times in 43 Posts	Mainspring does not have much effect on feeding. Correct me if I'm wrong Gents, but the weak mainspring will not absorb the recoil, and the pistol will slam in the back, peening the frame, and/or ramps. Too stiff mainspring will cause the weapon to "short stroke", and the fresh cartrige will not be picked up from the mag. Also,....too strong spring might not allow the breech to travel far enough for the empty case to hit the ejector with sufficient force to be ejected, thus it will stay "hooked" on the extractor, and travel back misaligned, causing the classic "stove pipe". "Nose up" (if I understand you correctly), is the loaded cartridge jammed between the breech block and the chamber? (failure to chamber) That's usually caused by the weak mag spring, damaged mag lips, or damaged follower. Try changing the mag, and forget about the mainspring for now. I would also inspect the frame rails/bolt rails, and check for burrs, damage, being tweaked, and such. Put the upper on the frame (don't hook it), and slide it gently back and forth to feel for binding.

02-25-2014, 04:02 PM	#33
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	There is a tiny bur in one spot waaaay in the back on the rails. Something to add, changing the striker spring to one of the extra power striker springs improved the function of the gun. However, I still have problems feeding. Using a #36 mainspring I can shoot the gun with its original magazine and a mec-gar magazine, but sometimes it won't activate the hold open latch. Before I changed the striker spring, the gun would't not feed properly during live fire but would chamber if I manually pulled the toggles. I am also using Fiocchi .30 Luger, both FMJ amd semi-jacketed soft points.

02-25-2014, 04:29 PM	#34
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	As for the feeding issue itself, the the round ends up nose first before entering the chamber; so yes, failure to chamber.

02-26-2014, 02:25 AM	#36
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	I will contact him when my next pay check comes in. I do have a Mec-gar mag that I purchased a few years ago, but I do think it needs work. The gun came with an original mag of some sort, I'll see if he can't rework that one as well. So, try to stick with the #38, don't modify it, and get new mag springs. Then retest!

02-26-2014, 03:43 PM	#37
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	GT has had some special Luger mag springs made up for just him. He installs them and says that they do not lose their power anywhere near like the original/aftermarket mag springs. Many of us on this forum have had GT "tuneup" mags for us with excellent results. When it come to Luger mags, GT is your man hands down!!

02-27-2014, 06:00 PM	#38
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Are they extra power springs? And should I have the original mag reworked?

03-10-2014, 06:07 PM	#40
Curss User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 303 Thanks: 304 Thanked 98 Times in 75 Posts	Update Ok, Finally got my magazines back from G.T., and so far no improvement. With the original magazine in place, and the #38 mainspring in place, every other shot ends up as a failure to feed. The Mec-Gar had similar results. With the #40 mainspring, the gun fails to eject I believe because it is not traveling far enough to reach the ejector. Did not matter which magazine was used. The #36 mainspring gave no improvement as well with either Mec-Gar nor original magazine. Perhaps I should clip one of the new mainsprings down to 19 coils? Which one should I start with? Jim Solomon's tool got a good exercise in mainspring changes. With a little practice, I've gotten darn good at the mainspring swap. __________________ -Chris Last edited by Curss; 03-10-2014 at 09:41 PM.