Not extracting - Page 2

F15E_WSO · 08-11-2018, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Denny is correct..clarification is always good. You say the extractor moves up and down easily. Could be a weak spring? Have you closely inspected the extractor lips?

Take out the firing pin. Insert a magazine of rounds..try to work the toggle to extract them all.

Take a look at your ejector to see that it is complete and not chipped or broken.

lugerholsterrepair, ejector looks good I think, not chipped or broken (see photos previous page). What are "extractor lips"? What number would you assign them on the parts legend below?

lugerholsterrepair · 08-11-2018, 09:57 PM

#21. The lips/buck teeth grab onto the channel at the back of the cartridge. If these are damaged in any way..they might slip off. If the spring is weak..it might not clamp down hard enough to pull the cartridge back and out. One of many possibilities.

F15E_WSO · 08-12-2018, 06:55 PM

So back to the range this morning. Still feeding the Fiocchis in one at a time into the magazine and then the chamber. First four rounds "chimney". I consider this progress as yesterday only 1 of 7 got that far. Fifth shot comes up AND out of the breech and the toggle is full locked in the open position with an empty mag!! Good news. Next four rounds fire, eject, toggle locked open. Yes!!

OK, now let's put two in the mag and see if we can complete the next step....

Not so much. NOT one of the second rounds in the mag made it up and in the chamber. Now ALL fired rounds ejected up and out, but the next round jammed.

Now these are Fiocchi 765 .30 Luger 93 gr. The listing says FMJ but they have in fact a lead tip. Soft lead....

Now a new Mag is in the mail, so happy to let this lay for the week and try again when the new mag arrives....it may fix the rest of this.

Thoughts on the jamming "next" round and the soft lead tip? Soft tips a recipe for disaster? New Mag may sort it out, leave it for now?

4 Scale · 08-12-2018, 11:27 PM

Using Fiocchi in my .30 Luger pistols often results in the nose-high jam shown in your post #23. After lots of experimenting, measuring rounds and consulting with our Luger/magazine expert G.T., I think Fiocchi is short in overall length and that's what causes that jam. Prvi Partisan ammo is slightly longer and fixed the issue.

F15E_WSO · 08-13-2018, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Using Fiocchi in my .30 Luger pistols often results in the nose-high jam shown in your post #23. After lots of experimenting, measuring rounds and consulting with our Luger/magazine expert G.T., I think Fiocchi is short in overall length and that's what causes that jam. Prvi Partisan ammo is slightly longer and fixed the issue.

Maybe the new magazine will help. I think you're the second to recommend the Prvi Partisan but none to be found?! Do you have a source? Link?

DavidJayUden · 08-13-2018, 08:04 AM

Different ammo with FMJ design and a new mag. should get you close.
If you are here to stay contact GT and secure one of his mags. for your shooting.

https://www.gunbroker.com/Ammunition...ds=.30%20Luger

dju

DonVoigt · 08-13-2018, 08:12 AM

That jam is typical of "weak" Fiocchi and the problem is that the toggle does not come back all the way to pick up the next round.
Solution is "stronger" ammo like PPU, or weaker mainspring.

You can't fix it with a magazine. Too short OAL can compound the problem, but unless you get the toggle to full extension, it still won't work.

I'll bet the toggle does not lock open when you fire a single round either, a confirming symptom.

K.Wilhelm · 08-13-2018, 09:12 AM

For those of us who really like shooting the .30 Luger round there is really no good choice other than handloading. The bullets can be a bit of a challenge to find, but the brass is fairly easy. An add in the "want to buy" section would probably yield results. Single stage presses are readily available and cheap as are .30 Luger dies.

Anyway, the really great thing about handloading is you can easily adjust powder charges and over all lengths(oal) to fit your pistol perfectly. As Sieger and Rhuff taught me Lugers tend to like longer oal. Bill

Lugerdoc · 08-13-2018, 11:40 AM

In your photos of the jammed round, your toggle doesn't appear to be opening fully. Could be a result of too strong a recoil spring or a defective connecting link, which is attached to the rear toggle link. TH

rhuff · 08-13-2018, 03:33 PM

MY 7.65P Lugers do not play well with the Fiocchi soft tip ammo, or any of the hollow point bullets that I tried in reloading the 30 Luger brass. No problems with the Fiocchi 92gr FMJ in any of my guns. Some folks here, on the forum, have Lugers that eat the JSP ammo with no problems. Many Lugers are ammo sensitive, and one has to "shop around" or handload.

F15E_WSO · 08-13-2018, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

That jam is typical of "weak" Fiocchi and the problem is that the toggle does not come back all the way to pick up the next round.
Solution is "stronger" ammo like PPU, or weaker mainspring.

You can't fix it with a magazine. Too short OAL can compound the problem, but unless you get the toggle to full extension, it still won't work.

I'll bet the toggle does not lock open when you fire a single round either, a confirming symptom.

DV, so yesterday when I was not trying to cycle the second round; shooting one round at a time in magazine therefore empty mag when cycling the Hold Open was working, the toggle would stay back. At that point I felt that things were heading towards normal ops and I tried to rounds. Fiocchi makes a 765A and 765B, the alpha has FULL metal copper jacket, the bravo has the lead tip.

Of course I got the lead tip

HerrKaiser · 08-13-2018, 06:03 PM

My .30 also played very nice with Fiocchi 92 gr FMJ and had no problems shooting with it. Granted it’s springs feel MUCH weaker than my 9mm and all mechanical functions on it are silky smooth, since whoever had it first seemed to love it a lot. That said it’s holdopen doesn’t work when shooting.

F15E_WSO · 08-13-2018, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhuff

MY 7.65P Lugers do not play well with the Fiocchi soft tip ammo, or any of the hollow point bullets that I tried in reloading the 30 Luger brass. No problems with the Fiocchi 92gr FMJ in any of my guns. Some folks here, on the forum, have Lugers that eat the JSP ammo with no problems. Many Lugers are ammo sensitive, and one has to "shop around" or handload.

So a review of my WhiteBirch Armory purchase shows I did in fact order the Fiocchi 765A (FMJ) vs the Fiocchi 765B (JSP)..... I've contacted them to see what is up with the mix-up. Not blaming them for the problem (could easily be the gun, the Fiocchi (rated weak)) but I'd like to start with a FMJ.

F15E_WSO · 08-13-2018, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

My .30 also played very nice with Fiocchi 92 gr FMJ and had no problems shooting with it. Granted it’s springs feel MUCH weaker than my 9mm and all mechanical functions on it are silky smooth, since whoever had it first seemed to love it a lot. That said it’s holdopen doesn’t work when shooting.

Herr Kaiser, so you sort of blow off the Hold Open when the Mag is empty? Otherwise, you load a mag, action the toggle to load a round, and then shoot until empty. Not other issues?

HerrKaiser · 08-13-2018, 08:08 PM

Well I only shot it once because it’s all matching. But when I did I just counted the rounds and manually locked it open after the last shot to reload it. Otherwise it didn’t have any issues whatsoever. Fed, fired, extracted and ejected flawlessly. Magazine feed and release was clean and easy, takedown lever slid smooth as did dis/reassembly procedures. Only issue was toggle not locking open on empty.

DonVoigt · 08-13-2018, 09:29 PM

Hold open problems can be a pain.
One of my shooters is a 1906(coil mainspring/grip safety). I have two uppers for it.
One is a 9mm 1902 fat barrel profile clone; it holds open every time with any 9mm ammo I feed it.
The "other" barrel is a 4" bull barrel GT special, I was firing it today - used 4 different types 9mm ammo, two factory and two reloads. Only one of the reloads would lock the toggle open when firing.

So what you say has this to do with the OP's 7,65mm- nothing- but it does illustrate the need to get full recoil for the hold open to function! The slightly heavier 4" bull barrel is right on the edge of allowing full recoil due to the "extra" mass.

So- I'm back to "it's the ammo", you gotta' get some PPU!

Rick W. · 08-13-2018, 09:53 PM

My friends tell me that the Serbian 30 Luger is more stout than the Fiocchi 30 Luger. Just hearsay on my part, I am a handloader for many years.

Some of your pictures suggest a short stroke on the toggle movement, could be a lot of things like too strong a recoil spring, or ammo that is on the soft side. With the breechblock picts colliding with the middle of the next cartridge, suggests the same thing. You might look at the cartridges that got caught in the action, there oughta be a mark from the lower section of the breechblock face on said case. Might be hard to see, but a black magic marker is your friend.

One might consider placing a piece of cheapo masking tape at the rear of the pistol, to see if the rear link ears are banging the rear of the frame around the lanyard ring. If no mark, a short stroke is possible; if marked; then the toggle is fully retracting.

I cannot see how the bullet nose causes extraction/ejection issues, but my comprhensional skills are down now.

With the holdopen jazz, the issues with such can be many. Taking a grip off and watching the magazine button/holdopen interface might help. These pistols are not new anymore, so surfaces may wear and round if you will. Sounds like in the postings, that the holdopen can work on occasion at least.

kurusu · 08-14-2018, 06:26 PM

Just a heads up. Make sure you have no pierced primers on the "weak" Fiocchi ammo.

mrerick · 08-14-2018, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

In your photos of the jammed round, your toggle doesn't appear to be opening fully. Could be a result of too strong a recoil spring or a defective connecting link, which is attached to the rear toggle link. TH

If you check our Luger FAQ document, you'll find the various recoil springs that were used in Lugers.

I also thought you might have a spring that was too powerful when I saw the pictures.

kurusu · 08-16-2018, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

Just a heads up. Make sure you have no pierced primers on the "weak" Fiocchi ammo.

Forgot to say this. If you do have pierced primers. Do no use that ammo in a Luger ever.

08-11-2018, 09:57 PM	#22
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	#21. The lips/buck teeth grab onto the channel at the back of the cartridge. If these are damaged in any way..they might slip off. If the spring is weak..it might not clamp down hard enough to pull the cartridge back and out. One of many possibilities. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-13-2018, 08:12 AM	#27
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	That jam is typical of "weak" Fiocchi and the problem is that the toggle does not come back all the way to pick up the next round. Solution is "stronger" ammo like PPU, or weaker mainspring. You can't fix it with a magazine. Too short OAL can compound the problem, but unless you get the toggle to full extension, it still won't work. I'll bet the toggle does not lock open when you fire a single round either, a confirming symptom. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

08-13-2018, 09:12 AM	#28
K.Wilhelm User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Central Colorado Posts: 215 Thanks: 45 Thanked 109 Times in 66 Posts	.30 Luger issues For those of us who really like shooting the .30 Luger round there is really no good choice other than handloading. The bullets can be a bit of a challenge to find, but the brass is fairly easy. An add in the "want to buy" section would probably yield results. Single stage presses are readily available and cheap as are .30 Luger dies. Anyway, the really great thing about handloading is you can easily adjust powder charges and over all lengths(oal) to fit your pistol perfectly. As Sieger and Rhuff taught me Lugers tend to like longer oal. Bill __________________ NRA Endowment Life member Proud veteran of the Naval Security Group

08-13-2018, 11:40 AM	#29
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	In your photos of the jammed round, your toggle doesn't appear to be opening fully. Could be a result of too strong a recoil spring or a defective connecting link, which is attached to the rear toggle link. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-13-2018, 03:33 PM	#30
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	MY 7.65P Lugers do not play well with the Fiocchi soft tip ammo, or any of the hollow point bullets that I tried in reloading the 30 Luger brass. No problems with the Fiocchi 92gr FMJ in any of my guns. Some folks here, on the forum, have Lugers that eat the JSP ammo with no problems. Many Lugers are ammo sensitive, and one has to "shop around" or handload. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

08-12-2018, 06:55 PM	#23
F15E_WSO User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Nellis AFB NV Posts: 52 Thanks: 55 Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts	Day 2 Updates So back to the range this morning. Still feeding the Fiocchis in one at a time into the magazine and then the chamber. First four rounds "chimney". I consider this progress as yesterday only 1 of 7 got that far. Fifth shot comes up AND out of the breech and the toggle is full locked in the open position with an empty mag!! Good news. Next four rounds fire, eject, toggle locked open. Yes!! OK, now let's put two in the mag and see if we can complete the next step.... Not so much. NOT one of the second rounds in the mag made it up and in the chamber. Now ALL fired rounds ejected up and out, but the next round jammed. Now these are Fiocchi 765 .30 Luger 93 gr. The listing says FMJ but they have in fact a lead tip. Soft lead.... Now a new Mag is in the mail, so happy to let this lay for the week and try again when the new mag arrives....it may fix the rest of this. Thoughts on the jamming "next" round and the soft lead tip? Soft tips a recipe for disaster? New Mag may sort it out, leave it for now? Attached Thumbnails

08-12-2018, 11:27 PM	#24
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Using Fiocchi in my .30 Luger pistols often results in the nose-high jam shown in your post #23. After lots of experimenting, measuring rounds and consulting with our Luger/magazine expert G.T., I think Fiocchi is short in overall length and that's what causes that jam. Prvi Partisan ammo is slightly longer and fixed the issue.

08-13-2018, 08:04 AM	#26
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Different ammo with FMJ design and a new mag. should get you close. If you are here to stay contact GT and secure one of his mags. for your shooting. https://www.gunbroker.com/Ammunition...ds=.30%20Luger dju

08-13-2018, 06:03 PM	#32
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	My .30 also played very nice with Fiocchi 92 gr FMJ and had no problems shooting with it. Granted it’s springs feel MUCH weaker than my 9mm and all mechanical functions on it are silky smooth, since whoever had it first seemed to love it a lot. That said it’s holdopen doesn’t work when shooting. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

08-13-2018, 08:08 PM	#35
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	Well I only shot it once because it’s all matching. But when I did I just counted the rounds and manually locked it open after the last shot to reload it. Otherwise it didn’t have any issues whatsoever. Fed, fired, extracted and ejected flawlessly. Magazine feed and release was clean and easy, takedown lever slid smooth as did dis/reassembly procedures. Only issue was toggle not locking open on empty. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

08-13-2018, 09:29 PM	#36
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Hold open problems can be a pain. One of my shooters is a 1906(coil mainspring/grip safety). I have two uppers for it. One is a 9mm 1902 fat barrel profile clone; it holds open every time with any 9mm ammo I feed it. The "other" barrel is a 4" bull barrel GT special, I was firing it today - used 4 different types 9mm ammo, two factory and two reloads. Only one of the reloads would lock the toggle open when firing. So what you say has this to do with the OP's 7,65mm- nothing- but it does illustrate the need to get full recoil for the hold open to function! The slightly heavier 4" bull barrel is right on the edge of allowing full recoil due to the "extra" mass. So- I'm back to "it's the ammo", you gotta' get some PPU! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

08-13-2018, 09:53 PM	#37
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	My friends tell me that the Serbian 30 Luger is more stout than the Fiocchi 30 Luger. Just hearsay on my part, I am a handloader for many years. Some of your pictures suggest a short stroke on the toggle movement, could be a lot of things like too strong a recoil spring, or ammo that is on the soft side. With the breechblock picts colliding with the middle of the next cartridge, suggests the same thing. You might look at the cartridges that got caught in the action, there oughta be a mark from the lower section of the breechblock face on said case. Might be hard to see, but a black magic marker is your friend. One might consider placing a piece of cheapo masking tape at the rear of the pistol, to see if the rear link ears are banging the rear of the frame around the lanyard ring. If no mark, a short stroke is possible; if marked; then the toggle is fully retracting. I cannot see how the bullet nose causes extraction/ejection issues, but my comprhensional skills are down now. With the holdopen jazz, the issues with such can be many. Taking a grip off and watching the magazine button/holdopen interface might help. These pistols are not new anymore, so surfaces may wear and round if you will. Sounds like in the postings, that the holdopen can work on occasion at least.

08-14-2018, 06:26 PM	#38
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	Just a heads up. Make sure you have no pierced primers on the "weak" Fiocchi ammo.