Dovetail cutter???

sheepherder · 10-21-2010, 09:38 PM

Did someone here say they knew a vender that sold Luger/P38 dovetail cutters???

Smallest I can find hereabouts is 60º x .245"...the blueprint CD calls for 5.4mm/.212"...

...???...

John Sabato · 10-22-2010, 11:48 AM

I have never cut a dovetail for a Luger, P-38, or K98, but I have cut sight bases on custom barrels for sights from those guns... I always used a very small end mill to cut the correct depth that was just "close" to the size of the top of the dovetail, and then carefully hand cut the angles using a safe-sided triangular file that I made for that purpose by grinding one side flat... I think Brownells may sell similar files... I never cut enough dovetails to warrant buying a proper tool.

Here is an article on how to make one using cutting inserts that you can adapt to the size you want to cut.

You may want to braze the insert onto the tool body instead of using a mechanical hold down method considering how small the tool will be for your purposes...

http://cnccookbook.com/MTMillDovetail.htm

and Here is a photo:

-John

sheepherder · 10-22-2010, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Here is an article on how to make one using cutting inserts that you can adapt to the size you want to cut.

thanks for your reply, John! My mail tooling distributor, Travers http://www.travers.com/ sells just such a dovetail cutter...for very large dovetails...like lathe & mill ways...which looks like what your pic is...

Anything as small as a Luger front sight dovetail cutter is beyond my patience to make from scratch...Just too small...

I thought someone mentioned about a year ago that there was a vendor who sold dovetail cutters of that size...I think it is 55º instead of 60º...but with a slot that small, the 5º difference is unnoticeable...

If I had the cutter, I could re-use a Luger or P38 sight...Otherwise, I have to make the sight in-place, from scratch...

I do have small safe files, but the edges are pretty rounded...I might have to buy a couple new files...

I might try that first...Since the .245" cutter is bigger, it would cut away any filing mistakes...

Edit: Hmmmm...Here's a place...Not the Luger Metric cutter, but the 3/16" cutter with multiple passes should work...

http://www.harveytool.com/products/p...vetail+Cutters

I need to check the CD and confirm the angle...It's not given in degrees...have to drag out my trig tables and actually [gasp!] do some basic trigonometry...

...Or I could hold up a Luger sight to my thread gage and eyeball it...

Edit2: I eyeballed it to my 60º thread gage...It ain't no 60º...

OK; I did the math...It works out to 41º from the CD prints...

I may just go ahead and make my own sights...

Edit3: Harvey Tools makes a 40º dovetail cutter...

http://www.harveytool.com/products/p...&category_id=1

All is right in the world...

sheepherder · 11-04-2010, 01:06 PM

I ordered the 40º x 3/16" carbide dovetail cutter today...actually cheaper than listed on the web site...If anyone else is interested, they do not sell directly, only through their distributors...You can find the closest one on their site...and CC order from the dist...

FWIW, back in '69 when I worked for Twin Industries Inc (an aerospace subcontractor) dovetails were cut by a pieplate-shaped cutter on a horizontal mill...the workpiece was clamped at the desired angle, and one side of the dovetail cut...then the piece was rotated and the opposite side cut...

Something like this...I don't know if that is how the Luger was done, but it is a quicker and safer method than a teeny tiny dovetail cutter...

sheepherder · 11-09-2010, 12:13 PM

The Harvey Tool dovetail cutter came today...Looks like a good fit...

I don't have a barrel ready to fit a sight to at this time...but I will postmark this thread for further revision...

Ron Wood · 11-09-2010, 01:53 PM

Rich,
It does look like a good fit. Thanks for the photos and your "progress reports". Hope your dovetail cutter works great and you don't hear that dreadful "ping".

John Sabato · 11-09-2010, 01:56 PM

The horizontal milling machine with the cutter you described certainly looks like a fine solution and doesn't look as fragile as that tiny dovetail cutter...

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

FWIW, back in'69 when I worked for Twin Industries Inc (an aerospace subcontractor) dovetails were cut by a pieplate-shaped cutter on a horizontal mill...the workpiece was clamped at the desired angle, and one side of the dovetail cut...then the piece was rotated and the opposite side cut...

Something like this...I don't know if that is how the Luger was done, but it is a quicker and safer method than a teeny tiny dovetail cutter...

sheepherder · 11-09-2010, 02:28 PM

Yes, it certainly is fragile looking...3/16" shank...3/16" across the base...Major pucker factor...

I'm more familiar with 3 and 4 flute dovetail cutters; I'll have to read up on speeds for the 2 flutes...

SIGP2101 · 11-10-2010, 04:27 PM

Looks like easy enough to be made in home shop, hmmm….

sheepherder · 11-10-2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGP2101

Looks like easy enough to be made in home shop, hmmm….

You can make dovetail cutters in your home shop???

I'd like to order a .212" x 40º 4-flute dovetail cutter, please!

...Make that two!!!

SIGP2101 · 11-12-2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

You can make dovetail cutters in your home shop???

I'd like to order a .212" x 40º 4-flute dovetail cutter, please!

...Make that two!!!

YES, you can grind pretty much every mill bit into dovetail cutter.

John Sabato · 11-12-2010, 03:46 PM

All you have to do is grind away anything that doesn't look like a dovetail cutter!

(But stay within the specifications you quoted if you want it to work)

SIGP2101 · 11-12-2010, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

All you have to do is grind away anything that doesn't look like a dovetail cutter!

(But stay within the specifications you quoted if you want it to work)

Not really, but it should look like this when done with grinding. :

sheepherder · 11-12-2010, 04:11 PM

You two guys are much more experienced than me...Besides my poor eyesight and shaky hands, I don't have the necessary grinding skills either...

Vlim · 11-12-2010, 04:48 PM

Post-WW2, Mauser used the following system:

First they milled out a square, 3.9mm across, 1.5mm deep.
Then they milled out the dovetails using a dovetail cutter with a base of 5.43mm and a 40 degree angle. This would open up the top gap to 4.18mm.

Hope this helps

sheepherder · 02-04-2014, 01:07 PM

I'll try the Harvey Tool dovetail cutter on a piece of scrap and see how it works out...

John Sabato · 02-04-2014, 03:30 PM

On those occasions when I needed to reform or create a sight dovetail, back in my formative gunsmith days, my tools were as many hacksaw blades that when stacked together and mounted on the same hacksaw frame carefully made the vertical slot to near dimensions, followed by a "safe" triangular file, or a standard file ground to produce the dovetail angle... used VERY carefully by my calibrated hand. If I made a mistake, and there were a few

, we got the welder out and filled the dovetail and started over...

I did have a dovetail cutter for a 1911A1 rearsight dovetail at one time, but only used it once...

Olle · 02-04-2014, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I'll try the Harvey Tool dovetail cutter on a piece of scrap and see how it works out...

I thought you already tried it? I bought one just like it, and it worked great. I just made a straight cut with an end mill, and then I took about 2-3 thousands at a time with the dovetail cutter. It went straight through without any drama at all.

sheepherder · 02-04-2014, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

I thought you already tried it? I bought one just like it...

You bought a Luger dovetail cutter??? Do you remember where you bought it???

Olle · 02-04-2014, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

You bought a Luger dovetail cutter??? Do you remember where you bought it???

I got the same one as you have, from Harvey Tool. Seems to work just fine.

10-21-2010, 09:38 PM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Dovetail cutter??? Did someone here say they knew a vender that sold Luger/P38 dovetail cutters??? Smallest I can find hereabouts is 60º x .245"...the blueprint CD calls for 5.4mm/.212"... ...???... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-04-2010, 01:06 PM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	I ordered the 40º x 3/16" carbide dovetail cutter today...actually cheaper than listed on the web site...If anyone else is interested, they do not sell directly, only through their distributors...You can find the closest one on their site...and CC order from the dist... FWIW, back in '69 when I worked for Twin Industries Inc (an aerospace subcontractor) dovetails were cut by a pieplate-shaped cutter on a horizontal mill...the workpiece was clamped at the desired angle, and one side of the dovetail cut...then the piece was rotated and the opposite side cut... Something like this...I don't know if that is how the Luger was done, but it is a quicker and safer method than a teeny tiny dovetail cutter... Attached Images __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 11-09-2010 at 02:26 PM.

11-09-2010, 12:13 PM	#5
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	The Harvey Tool dovetail cutter came today...Looks like a good fit... I don't have a barrel ready to fit a sight to at this time...but I will postmark this thread for further revision... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-09-2010, 01:53 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Rich, It does look like a good fit. Thanks for the photos and your "progress reports". Hope your dovetail cutter works great and you don't hear that dreadful "ping". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-09-2010, 02:28 PM	#8
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Yes, it certainly is fragile looking...3/16" shank...3/16" across the base...Major pucker factor... I'm more familiar with 3 and 4 flute dovetail cutters; I'll have to read up on speeds for the 2 flutes... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 11-10-2010 at 04:39 PM.

10-22-2010, 11:48 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I have never cut a dovetail for a Luger, P-38, or K98, but I have cut sight bases on custom barrels for sights from those guns... I always used a very small end mill to cut the correct depth that was just "close" to the size of the top of the dovetail, and then carefully hand cut the angles using a safe-sided triangular file that I made for that purpose by grinding one side flat... I think Brownells may sell similar files... I never cut enough dovetails to warrant buying a proper tool. Here is an article on how to make one using cutting inserts that you can adapt to the size you want to cut. You may want to braze the insert onto the tool body instead of using a mechanical hold down method considering how small the tool will be for your purposes... http://cnccookbook.com/MTMillDovetail.htm and Here is a photo: -John

11-10-2010, 04:27 PM	#9
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Looks like easy enough to be made in home shop, hmmm….

11-12-2010, 03:46 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	All you have to do is grind away anything that doesn't look like a dovetail cutter! (But stay within the specifications you quoted if you want it to work) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-12-2010, 04:11 PM	#14
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	You two guys are much more experienced than me...Besides my poor eyesight and shaky hands, I don't have the necessary grinding skills either... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-12-2010, 04:48 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Post-WW2, Mauser used the following system: First they milled out a square, 3.9mm across, 1.5mm deep. Then they milled out the dovetails using a dovetail cutter with a base of 5.43mm and a 40 degree angle. This would open up the top gap to 4.18mm. Hope this helps

02-04-2014, 01:07 PM	#16
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	I'll try the Harvey Tool dovetail cutter on a piece of scrap and see how it works out... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

02-04-2014, 03:30 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	On those occasions when I needed to reform or create a sight dovetail, back in my formative gunsmith days, my tools were as many hacksaw blades that when stacked together and mounted on the same hacksaw frame carefully made the vertical slot to near dimensions, followed by a "safe" triangular file, or a standard file ground to produce the dovetail angle... used VERY carefully by my calibrated hand. If I made a mistake, and there were a few , we got the welder out and filled the dovetail and started over... I did have a dovetail cutter for a 1911A1 rearsight dovetail at one time, but only used it once... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*