My "new" Luger 08 from 1940

[Logger08]

Hello,

I would like to show you my new 08 and get some feedback what we are looking at.

I think (and might be very mistaken) the 08 was originally build by Mauser in 1940 and fell then into the hands of the Russians.
After WW 2 it might have been refurbished for police use (VoPo).

I also got 2 magazines, only the lower one has the same number as the pistol.

So my first question is, what do you think about it?
Do you share my conclusions and/or do you have additional/different info?
Would you recommend it to be shot?
If so, my last picture shows the ammunition I have. I got the S&B recommended to be used with this pistol, however I think from the energy point of view the Magtech should have less. But I have no clue about the powder that is used in either of them.

Best regards,
Martin

Here are some pictures:

[DavidJayUden]

Martin:
I believe that you are correct about the history of the gun: German military, Russian capture, east German VoPo. These are generally very good shooters, but it is always good advice to have it checked over first.
The ammo you show is 140 grains bullet weight (S&B) or 125 Magtech. I'd use either the 125 gr. or buy some 115 Magtech, S&B or Winchester white box. 115 will stress the gun less than the heavier stuff.
LEt us know how it shoots!
dju

[Logger08]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Martin:
I believe that you are correct about the history of the gun: German military, Russian capture, east German VoPo. These are generally very good shooters, but it is always good advice to have it checked over first.
The ammo you show is 140 grains bullet weight (S&B) or 125 Magtech. I'd use either the 125 gr. or buy some 115 Magtech, S&B or Winchester white box. 115 will stress the gun less than the heavier stuff.
LEt us know how it shoots!
dju

Hello David,
Thanks for your feedback.
As I bought it of a gunsmith I do hope they have checked it.
(Especially as I mentioned I want to shoot it).

Concerning the ammo you are actually rather confirming my suspicion, that the 140gr might not be the best option.
However the Winchester white box seems to be difficult to come by here in Germany. But 115gr ammo should generally not be too much of a problem to find here.
Best regards,
Martin

[rhuff]

That should be a good shooter for you. You will want to field strip it for cleaning, inspection, and lube. I would not use any ammo with a heavier bullet weight than 124gr, others may disagree. Enjoy it, and let us know how things work out for you.




Edit: I just read your latest post, and would assume that the gunsmith inspected, cleaned and lubed your Luger. You should be good to go.

[Logger08]

Originally Posted by rhuff

...
I would not use any ammo with a heavier bullet weight than 124gr, others may disagree. Enjoy it, and let us know how things work out for you.

Hello rhuff,

That confirms (again) my suspicion concerning the ammo.
Also considering what I found concerning the original spec for ammo (about 124 gr and 330m/s).
If these values are correct, than the Magtech is a little bit faster (I think about 340m/s). But of cause the powder is most likely quicker today.
Problem is I am not allowed to reload (by law, or I would have to take special trainings) and I am honestly speaking also not really interested in doing it, so I have to stick to what I can buy.

Best regards,
Martin

[mrerick]

Hi Martin, and welcome to the forum.

You'll probably enjoy a copy of the free Luger FAQ document you can download from this site. Just follow the FAQ link at the top of pages...

I agree that these refinished Mauser made Lugers make great shooters. Stick with 115gn standard velocity (not NATO power) ammo.

It's interesting that it has one VoPo grip and the other appears to be original wartime bakelite (or could be an aftermarket replacement). Keep your eye out for a matching VoPo grip.

Provide a firm grip and good support when you shoot it and it will probably cycle without problem.

Marc

[DonVoigt]

A great choice for shooting; with history on its side too.

Energy = weight x velocity; so just looking at bullet weight is only 1/2 of the issue.

The 115 and 124 grain bullet cartridges should be fine, as others have said- stay away from +P and Nato spec ammo.

[Lugerdoc]

Martin, Your 1940 DDR rework should be a good shooter, since they installed a new barrel in the 1950s and mismatched toggle assy. TH

[Logger08]

Hello,

Thanks a lot for your feedback concerning the 08.

I still struggle to understand about the ammo, I have to admit.
I know the 08 was originally specified for 124gr with 327 m/s.
But what is the reason not to use 140gr or more, if the load is reduced to have less energy than the original spec?
The depicted S&B has a v0 of 305 m/s and an energy E0 of 419J.
This is below the energy given for a 124gr with 327 m/s (spec value I found).
I am aware of the problem with the newer powder burning quicker than the one used 100years ago.
As I cannot influence the type of gunpowder in factory-ammo I would normally go for the ammo with the least energy I can find, but this would be against your recommendation.
And as I know you are the experts, I will follow your advice, but I would like to understand the reason for your advice.

Best regards,
Martin

[mrerick]

The timing of the action in a Luger is more precise than in modern firearms.

Even the angle of the forward facing edge of the frame ears had to be adjusted over the early life of the design. There have also been a relatively large number of different recoil springs specified for different model and era Lugers.

The action depends upon good support during cycling and the correct mass and energy power curve combination in order to cycle just right. Too much and it will mis-feed or stovepipe. Too little and it may not cycle completely. Powder is available in a complete range of burning speeds and power curves, but the question is "what is used in a manufacturer's ammo"? Someone like Winchester probably uses their W-231 (Hodgdon HP-38) powder in their Standard Velocity 115gn ball ammo. Most don't disclose what they actually use, and probably shift to different powders from time to time.

This pistol was, for the most part, designed through experimentation without the measurement sophistication available today with modern high speed photography and similar visualization tools.

Find an ammo that is not too powerful that will properly cycle it. We suggested starting points.

[DavidJayUden]

Martin:
My biggest concern is how hard the toggle slams into the frame as it goes all the way back. I suspect that the heavier bullets cause more rearward force, but that is entirely my conjecture and opinion. Go out and try to find the least-powerful ammo that will function your gun correctly.
dju

[DonVoigt]

Weight does not mean energy which is what it takes to make recoil!

A higher weight bullet at a lower velocity imparts less energy and thus less recoil to the mechanism;
perhaps so much that it will not eject or reload properly.

Use "normal" 9mm parabellum rounds in 115 or 124gr commercial loadings, your particular luger may like one brand more than another.

It depends on many things, but perhaps most important is the strength of the recoil spring. A mark at the rear of the frame is normal and part of designed operation of the luger mechanism.
It does not really "slam" into the frame with proper ammo and springs and the recoil is nearly spent at that point.

Logger,
don't overthink it - millions of rounds have been fired through lugers without the shooter having any idea of what the cartridge was doing.

If you pistol is in good condition with original specification springs and has not been messed with or over stressed in the past it is fine. If it has been abused, there may be some evidence, but probably not. The luger is much more robust than many folks would have you believe. JMHO.

[Logger08]

Hello,

Thank for your input.

After having read your comments again and also material from additional sources, I think I have a better understanding now.
So from my point of view it is a combination of energy and impulse from the cartridge that will operate the 08.
And here it seems a balance has to be found.
(But as velocity is impacting energy squared and impulse linear, I think choosing heavier bullets is generally not the best option.)

I will first try different ammo in my Sig Sauer P220 to get a feeling.
Then I think I will start with the one I perceive weakest in the 08 and see how it works.
I will share the results.
(Sad thing is I will not be able to go on the range for the next 10days.)

Best regards,
Martin

[DonVoigt]

What the equation , e= mass x velocity(squared) means is that the velocity has a much higher impact on the energy of the cartridge than the weight.

You are still making this harder than it really is. JMHO.

[Logger08]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

You are still making this harder than it really is. JMHO.

Hello Don,

You might be right.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

What the equation , e= mass x velocity(squared) means is that the velocity has a much higher impact on the energy of the cartridge than the weight.

Yes, I know, but I additionally wanted to make the point that the impuls is just mass x velocity. And for that reason the higher weight of the bullet might be problematic.

In the end the only way to find out is to try the different ammo.
And I will follow the advice concerning the starting point with 124 or 115gr low power stuff.

Best regards,
Martin

[DonVoigt]

Most heavier 9mm P cartridges are loaded to much lower velocities.
Usually, in the US, for subsonic speed for use with a supressor.

Just for the record 124 gr x 1000 fps = 124K, a 140 gr bullet at 885 fps has the same "impulse".

I have fired subsonic 9mm rounds, 147gr - they will not operate the toggle to its full rearward position!

[Logger08]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Most heavier 9mm P cartridges are loaded to much lower velocities.
Usually, in the US, for subsonic speed for use with a supressor.

Just for the record 124 gr x 1000 fps = 124K, a 140 gr bullet at 885 fps has the same "impulse".

I have fired subsonic 9mm rounds, 147gr - they will not operate the toggle to its full rearward position!

Hello Don,
Yes, the S&B shown is also subsonic.
(I do not have and am not allowed a supressor.)

But I am really astonished the 147gr did not operate the toggle fully, me expectation was the opposite.
The impulse of the S&B is about 5% higher than the Magtech, even though the energy is about 10% less.
(Yes, I did not try either of them so far.)
But good to know.

Best regards,
Martin

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Logger08

Hello Don,
Yes, the S&B shown is also subsonic.
(I do not have and am not allowed a supressor.)

But I am really astonished the 147gr did not operate the toggle fully, me expectation was the opposite.
The impulse of the S&B is about 5% higher than the Magtech, even though the energy is about 10% less.
(Yes, I did not try either of them so far.)
But good to know.

Best regards,
Martin

My rounds were not magtech, but then it depends not only on the cartridge , but also the pistol recoil spring.

My point was that a heavy bullet does not automatically make a higher recoil impulse.

[Logger08]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

My rounds were not magtech, but then it depends not only on the cartridge , but also the pistol recoil spring.

My point was that a heavy bullet does not automatically make a higher recoil impulse.

Hello Don,

I got your point, but that was exactly what was astonishing to me.
(Having looked at the data of the ammo that I had seen.)

Well, next step is testing what I have and then I know if it works.

Best regards,
Martin

[rhuff]

As has been stated many times on this, and other forums, a P08 Luger CAN be very ammo sensitive, not all are. It boils down to trial and error to find the ammo brand, and load that has the correct recoil impulse for your Luger and it's current springs. All Luger shooters go through this, and those of us that handload our ammo go through different powders, bullets, OAL, etc. to "custom load" ammo for our guns. Each Luger is an individual with it's own needs, and when they are met, you have a great shooting experience.