H. Jones' Book - 1917 Erfurt Artillery ?

[Pete Ebbink]

In my 1975 re-print version of H. Jones' book, Luger Variations, on pages 138-139; there is pictured a 1917 Erfurt LP-08 luger (aka "Artillery" model).

The photo credit states this piece was in the Mr. Arnold Padilla collection; probably in the 1959 time frame when H. Jones' book was first put together.

Does anyone know anything about this 1917 Erfurt artillery ?

Given the fact that most experts now believe Erfurt made artillerys only in 1914, did any follow-up info. come out about Mr. Padilla's gun once Luger Variations came out ?

Was it proven to be a "parts gun" of some sort ?

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

This message was posted on the Forum back in June:

Jan C. Still
User

User # 38


posted 06-20-2002 15:01
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Walker
The question of the 1917 Erfurt in Jones book came up years ago in AUTO MAG. It was claimed that the Luger was taken apart to photograph the top and mismatched on reassembly. In any case it appears to be mismatch.
Jan
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[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Dwight,

You have a good memory...I went back and found the previous thread.

I do have the following questions, based on the previous thread started by Doubs :

1. I can envision a photographer taking the "top" of the luger off the frame to make photographing the top view easier. But why would further disassembly be required ? If the toggle assembly was taken down further, one has to assume a second luger was disassemled at the same time and all the parts got mixed up on the table. Is this likely ? I would think a photographer would only work with one luger at a time. (But this is just "wild ass" speculation, on my part...)

2. The second part of Doub's posting back in June 2002 asked about a statement about a 1915 Erfurt Artillery that was presented in Still's Imperial Lugers, on the bottom of page 92.

Curious that there was no reply to this part of the thread. Here is the second part of Doubs' orginal thread :

" One possible exception is reported in "Imperial Lugers" on page 92 at the bottom. A collector named McTague reported in 1990 having examined an Artillery Erfurt dated 1915 that he considered authentic. The serial number was # 6939 and the pistol was accompanied by a matching stock. "

I believe this serial # 6939 is the same 1915 Erfurt artillery that has been for sale at the Midwest web site for some time.

Has this 1915 Erfurt artillery been "authenticated" ? By others ? If so, by whom ? Is/was Mr. McTague an "expert" ? Why did Jan Still include this info. on page 92 ?

3. If a 1915 and possibly a 1917 Erfurt artillery has shown up (and assuming both are authentic...), why haven't more non-1914 dated Erfurt artillerys shown up ?

Regards,

Pete...

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

re: 1. Having been a professional photographer, and owning a number of Lugers myself, I can imagine two guns being taken down for direct comparitive photography of a particular part--in fact, I have seen exactly those photographs.

If I may further speculate from my experience, two Lugers would probably be disassembled on a different surface than the actual copy stand from which the photographs are made. The photographer might not be the only person handling the guns--an assistant might be handling the parts, or the respective guns' owners. The course of such a photo session, particularly if a lot of different aspects of the guns are being documented, tends toward the kind of inattention which results in misassembly. And yes, that's pretty sloppy work.

re: 2. Without directly answering your question, Still's Acknowledgements in "Imperial Lugers" at least illuminates the situation. For the authoritative answer, ask Jan.

re: 3. Pretty low-odds assumption, that. Most likely answer: because there aren't any, and nobody's gotten around to faking them yet.

--Dwight

[Jan C Still]

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Jan,

1. Thanks so much for the updated info. on the 1917. Will you and Mike Jones publish your findings in NAPCA's AutoMag at the appropriate time ? I am a member, so would look forward to your and Mike's findings.

2. Is Mr. McTague still active ? If so, would you or anyone else on the Forum have contact info. they could send me via a Private Message or at "pebbink@pacbell.net" ?

3. I will get a chance to meet the MidWest folks at Tulsa in a few weeks. I will plan to ask some questions about the 1915 Erfurt artillery. I will call/e-mail ahead of time to see if this luger might be at the show, as well.

Thanks so much for your time in replying !

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Jan C Still]

[Edward Tinker]

Jan, I think that Ole Pete was just meaning when you have enough facts and evidence to then decide to print.

I for one am very interested in this, (my first Luger was and is a 1914 artillery, kind of like a first girl-friend and such, you always have a special place in your heart) and to see what others say about a 1917 Erfurt, is very interesting.

[Big Norm]

I think that I remember the previous posting. If my memory serves me correctly, I also posted an oddity. I have a 1917 DWM LP-08 that has British marks on underside of the barrel. But the three toggle parts have Erfurt proof marks on them. The receiver has the usual four proof marks on the right side but it also has a fifth proof mark that is the Erfurt proof mark. Would this be some sort of Erfurt rework?
Big Norm

[John Sabato]

Big Norm,

I can't confirm or deny whether or not your strange artillery Luger passed through some kind of official rework program, but from your description, and our proximity to Halloween, I would say that it definitely meets the definition of what our fellow member Kyrie calls a "FrankenArtillery" Luger [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Jan,

John S. is correct...I was just wondering "where" the findings woud come out, so I would not miss them.

I assumed that since this 1917 artillery discussion possibly started through AutoMag, it would continue there...

But the Forum works, as well. Look forward to the udpate !

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Doubs]

This is an interesting thread to be sure. But, it also brings up some questions, at least for me.

IF the 1915 and the 1917 Erfurt Artillery model Lugers are examined by acknowledged authorities and proclaimed to be authentic, where are the rest of the production Erfurt Artilleries for those years? It flies in the face of reason to believe that only one Erfurt Artillery was made in 1915 and also in 1917.... or that only one example of each year has survived.

Are the rest at the bottom of the ocean, having been on their way to German or Turkish forces in the Middle East?

Or, were these particular pistols made up post-war of original factory parts?

Could these have been "standard" Erfurt pistols in for repairs and then equiped with the long barrels and smooth rear toggle link?

Or, am I simply being too skeptical?

[Jan C Still]

[John Sabato]

Doubs,

I am afraid that more Artillery Lugers ended up in piles like this one (post WW1) that were fed to steel mill blast furnaces than Luger enthusiasts like us would like to think about...

[Doubs]

John, everytime I see that picture - once was too many times - it nearly makes me sick! Untold thousands of Lugers and C-96's and who-knows-what condemned to the furnaces. ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH!!!

But, I can't believe that any significant quantity of Erfurt Artillery Lugers from years other than 1914 were destroyed.... at least to the extent that you seem to be suggesting.

If even a handful - say 40 or 50 total - of Erfurt Artillery model Lugers, with dates of 1915 through 1918 were known to exist and had been authenticated, then I'd have to say that Erfurt obviously manufactured Artillery Lugers during those years. However, two examples - one from 1915 and one from 1917 - create more questions than they do answers. I can imagine several very plausable ways in which these pistols came into being. Some legitimate, without the intent to deceive and some not so innocent.

It will take more than two one-off examples to satisfy me that Erfurt had a production run of Artillery Lugers with any receiver date other than 1914.

[John Sabato]

Doubs, you and I are in complete agreement about the possible origins of Erfurt Artillery models outside of 1914... some possibilities are good, and some are not so good.

The question is, that after 90 years, will the truth ever be known...?

IMHO the chances are that we won't. Most of the folks who would have known have already passed on, and if it isn't written in their private papers or government records that have survived, then anything we come up with will just be speculation... at least until some hard and fast evidence comes to the surface.

Best to you,

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello All,

Sort of related (but not...) to this thread are the following questions I have :

1. What happened at Erfurt after 1914 in their artillery section to have caused no more artillerys to have been made ?

I have read that Erfurt just focused on other production lines. But I also recall reading (in the old Jones or Datig books) that there was some theory that the Erfurt artillery tooling was transferred to DWM in late 1914, which was also evident in the low 1914 DWM artillery production numbers (going off memory, I think only ~ 25,000 or so guns in 1914 by DWM...).

What is the current thinking here about why Erfurt artillerys seemingly stopped after 1914 ?

2. Why did Erfurt continue to mill-out that front receiver groove on all their P-08's (from 1914 to 1918) when not intending to make any more artillerys ? Seems like this extra machining step would just add production costs/time with no real benefit...

I know my questions are just asking for speculation...but would like to hear others' thoughts and opinions...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Doubs]

[quote]Originally posted by Wm. Pete Ebbink:
<strong> &lt;Snip&gt; 2. Why did Erfurt continue to mill-out that front receiver groove on all their P-08's (from 1914 to 1918) when not intending to make any more artillerys ? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, Pete, they didn't. It wasn't until November of 1916 that a directive was issued that all receivers would have the rear sight notch milled out. Most 1916 dated Erfurts will not have the notch. Some 1917 and 1918 Erfurts will also lack the notch as Erfurt didn't always follow the directive. DWM seems to have ignored the directive altogether.

[Doubs]

John, at this late date it's unlikely that we'll ever know the full details of Erfurt Artillery model production. The time to have gathered the details would have been between 1919 and 1932 but there was very little interest in Lugers at that time. In fact, they had a rather dreadful reputation at that time in the US.

My father often spoke of the poor quality of many post-war guns imported into the US and how that drove prices down to rediculous levels. He owned several Lugers that were of the best quality and knew the difference.

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, Just remember that DWM owned the patents to the luger, that persumably they licensed to the Germany government to produce at Erfurt, for a royality fee. Perhaps the LPO8 was not covered by this agreement, and DWM chose to produce them, in house. Tom H.