Ugly Stovepipe

[Waveski]

Shot my 1916 DWM for the second time today. I experienced a problematic malfunction - a stovepipe combined with a round which became partially stripped from the magazine. A round had been stripped and chambered ; perhaps while pulling the toggle back to dislodge the stovepiped casing I engaged a second round from the mag? So , what I had once I had cleared stuck casing was a chambered round , plus another round which was half in - half out of the magazine , and lodged up against the chambered round. The result was that I could not drop the mag because it was still holding on to the back half of the round , and could not clear the second round for the same reason. Naturally , the toggle was trying to do it's job of pushing the round forward , and , unable to climb the feed ramp the bullet of the secound round came to rest tightly under the rim of the chambered round. Round two was really tight. (Wordy , but I think I have described the situation ...)

I found that I could not hold the toggle tight back and free up a hand to dislodge the second round , because the toggle hold back maneuver is a two handed operation. I found myself wishing that there was a hold-open mechanism which could be manually engaged despite a loaded magazine. I found that I wish I had paid closer attention to my father cursing in German years back , as it would have been appropriate in my situation. After some trial and error -with no small degree of discomfort dealing with a hot , jammed weapon , I opted to brace the grip against a piece of cardboard on the ground , force the toggle fully back with one hand , and pry the stuck second round free with a small screw driver. Not the safest thing I have ever done , but better than driving home with the hot gun - which was out of the question.

So , comments as to prevention of a reoccurence? Better way of dealing with the situation? Similar experiences to share?

Standing by , 'Ski

[DavidJayUden]

Not exactly clear why you couldn't hold the toggle all the way to the rear with your left hand and then release the magazine to clear part of the problem. But regardless, I'm wondering about the condition of your magazine to let everything go wrong at the same time. OEM magazine or Mec-Gar?
dju

[DonVoigt]

That situation happens with a luger; most anytime the round is only part way out of the magazine.
I never shoot alone, as one never knows what might go wrong.
Because of this practice, I control the luger and have my buddy help extract the magazine.
I also carry a "stick" and a screw driver!

Such a jam is usually due to "weak" recoil; the empty is not fully ejected but the bolt is far enough back to strip the next round- or the ejector is at fault. Or the shooter "limp" wristed on that shot.

[Edward Tinker]

I almost always shoot alone Don

What I do is hold with my left hand, aiming downrange, from the front of the frame, left hand.
Right hand, I pull the toggle back, left hand thumbing the mag release. Tilt right and it drops the round

Going by memory since its been a bit since I shot / had a stovepipe....

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I almost always shoot alone Don

What I do is hold with my left hand, aiming downrange, from the front of the frame, left hand.
Right hand, I pull the toggle back, left hand thumbing the mag release. Tilt right and it drops the round

Going by memory since its been a bit since I shot / had a stovepipe....

That's great for a simple stove pipe, but the OP had a Jam below the SP. One simple to clear another pretty much impossible by yourself.

Shooting alone is a personal choice, when you get to be "old" you may change your mind!
I never thought about it in the past, but now I do!

Especially since I work on all sorts of weapons that require test firing, one never knows when one of them may cause a problem.
It is amazing what folks can do to screw up a pistol or a rifle, getting them sorted out quite often takes more than two hands!

[ithacaartist]

This is a 3-handed job. (BY all means, keep that baby pointed downrange!) Didn't John Martz invent something for this? Anyway, a 1916 should have a relieved sear bar, which allows manipulation of the action while the safety is on.

[Waveski]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Not exactly clear why you couldn't hold the toggle all the way to the rear with your left hand and then release the magazine to clear part of the problem. But regardless, I'm wondering about the condition of your magazine to let everything go wrong at the same time. OEM magazine or Mec-Gar?
dju

Mr Uden -

To clarify , the pistol managed to chamber a round during the course of the failed ejection. Upon clearing the stove pipe I found that the next round had been stripped about halfway from the magazine ; as the bullet of that round encountered the feed ramp it lodged underneath the chambered round. Therefor , the magazine could not drop because it was still holding the aft end of round 2 , and round two was rather securely held in place by the magazine in the aft end , and the chambered round in the forward end.

Mag would not drop , round two firmly lodged in place. The result was a sticky wicket , as the Brits might say.

As to the magazine involved , I was rotating between an old magazine which came with the 1916 , and a new MecGar. To be honest , in the heat of the moment , dealing with an uncomfortable situation with which I had no previous experience , I lost track of which mag was which.

I will test shoot both magazines again today and report back.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

This is a 3-handed job. (BY all means, keep that baby pointed downrange!) Didn't John Martz invent something for this? Anyway, a 1916 should have a relieved sear bar, which allows manipulation of the action while the safety is on.

Somewhere I have seen or read of a modification to raise the hold open manually. Was a button or slide or something on the left side that acted on the arm of the hold open.

I don't remember where or who, or maybe I just dreamed it?

It would not be so complicated to do, but then- it is only rarely necessary or helpful .

[Waveski]

Addendum:

I have to think that the half in half out of the mag second round resulted from my drawing the toggle back to free the stovepipe. It did not occur to me at the time that that might happen.

In light of that , I plan to practice to avoid such an event in the future. Using Snap Caps , I will insert a round into the chamber , magazine removed , then ease the toggle forward to pin a stovepipe. Next I will insert a Snap Cap loaded mag and practice freeing the stovepipe without drawing the toggle assembly so far back that it strips a following round. I would think that this is doable.

In my past experiences with stovepipes in other semi-autos I have not had this situation occur. Also , most semis allow the shooter to lock the slide fully rearward without the influence of a magazine. In short , I am still learning the Luger.

[CRob]

What I have learned is the first thing I do with a stove pipe is drop the magazine, then pull the toggle back which allows spent round and chambered round to drop out.

[Waveski]

Originally Posted by CRob

What I have learned is the first thing I do with a stove pipe is drop the magazine, then pull the toggle back which allows spent round and chambered round to drop out.

Boy , does that ever make sense! There it was , right in front of me.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Waveski

Addendum:

I have to think that the half in half out of the mag second round resulted from my drawing the toggle back to free the stovepipe. It did not occur to me at the time that that might happen.

In light of that , I plan to practice to avoid such an event in the future. Using Snap Caps , I will insert a round into the chamber , magazine removed , then ease the toggle forward to pin a stovepipe. Next I will insert a Snap Cap loaded mag and practice freeing the stovepipe without drawing the toggle assembly so far back that it strips a following round. I would think that this is doable.

In my past experiences with stovepipes in other semi-autos I have not had this situation occur. Also , most semis allow the shooter to lock the slide fully rearward without the influence of a magazine. In short , I am still learning the Luger.

Better to eliminate the problem than to practice clearing it, JMHO.

[mrerick]

Put some masking tape on the back of the frame under the place where the receiver toggle contacts it and the frame stops the toggle.

Load a single round, and manually cycle it into the Luger. Leave the magazine in place

With a single round chambered and the magazine in place, aim and fire the Luger while focusing on a good supporting hold in which the recoil force will travel back through your bones and your body absorbs the recoil.

Check the tape to see if there is excessive force against the frame, no force against the frame or just a little.

Repeat the exercise a few times after changing the masking tape.

This will help you understand if the toggle mechanism is being driven back with too little or too much force, and will help you judge your grip.

If you can just see the marks from the toggle on the tape, the recoil spring and balance is probably pretty close to being correct for the ammunition you're using. If this is consistently the case, look to the magazine and also to your grip as the possible source of the feeding problems.

If everything is correct, load two rounds, chamber one manually and fire two. Observe the masking tape. Feel the recoil impulse.

if this works, try with three rounds. Continue until the stovepipe / misfeeds return or things are working properly.

The Luger is a balanced mechanism where too little or too much recoil compensation can lead to feed problems.

Always address your stance and hold before you start changing out things. Then start with a known good magazine. The best in my experience are the wartime or post war DDR Haenel Schmeisser / Thalmann manufactured "fxo" "E/37" or "1001/2" marked magazines.

[Waveski]

mrerick ,

Thank you for that detailed analysis and tutorial. I shall make it the basis for a project next weekend.

I ran 60 rounds thru my Luger today without incident , 20 each from 3 different magazines. My round total for this pistol is approx. 150 ; 1 stovepipe out 150 constitutes an isolated incident , I think , compounded by my learning curve. So it goes.

I included a couple of images for show & tell. I was set up at 25 ft. I achieved a reasonable grouping once I settled down. Also shown are my VOPO shooting grips. They look good enough that I am in no hurry to put the originals back on.

Thanks for your help. 'Ski

[DonVoigt]

I don't think you have a problem.
I agree that for shooting the Vopo grips are just fine.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

This is a 3-handed job. (BY all means, keep that baby pointed downrange!) Didn't John Martz invent something for this? Anyway, a 1916 should have a relieved sear bar, which allows manipulation of the action while the safety is on.

Can be done with two hands. Learned how to do it to clear this type of jam while competing.

1 open the action the usual away.

2 use your right hand to keep the action open like on photo.

3 your left hand is now free. You can push the cartridge back into the magazine with your index and release the magazine with your thumb. You can now easily remove the spent cartridge from the chamber.

Once in a while I had this type of jam. Not because of stovepiping but because the extractor released the case early leaving it halfway out the chamber(it was ammo related).

First time it ocurred was in a match. I had to declare an alibi, that cost me 2 points penalty, in a 5 minute 5 shot string because I couldn't clear it alone.

When I got home I decided it wouldn't happen again. So I developed this method.

[Ron Wood]

Mario,
That is an interesting marking on the frame panel. Can you tell us what it is?
Thanks,
Ron

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Somewhere I have seen or read of a modification to raise the hold open manually. Was a button or slide or something on the left side that acted on the arm of the hold open.

I don't remember where or who, or maybe I just dreamed it?

Sounds like the Martz Safe Toggle Release (US Patent #3,956,967).

[Lugerdoc]

M, Your method of clearing the chamber is what I always use for PO8 take down, rather than risking damaging the barrel crown by pushing it against a hard surface. when an empty mag is not available. I believe that I saw it in an old PO8 manual. The MSTR works by connecting the safety to a modified hold open, TH

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

The MSTR works by connecting the safety to a modified hold open, TH

There is a pin from a fabricated part that engages the hold-open and pushes it up into position independently of the magazine button. It's not quite clear how the added part is shaped...Or attached to the safety...

I know there are a couple members here who collect Martz conversions, and Martz stamped MSTR on the side of the modified Lugers. Maybe one of those could tell us how it operated??? ("junglejim" was one, I think)...

Edit: Here's the full MSTR patent file...