Help Again Please

Flintlock2016 · 03-31-2016, 03:48 PM

Hello All
I've been sent some photos of another luger which I may buy if it's ok. As I said in my other post I'm new to lugers and know very little if nothing about them so I'm hoping that once again you wonderful guys out there will help.
I've not seen the pistol myself but I've uploaded some photos I've been sent and would love to have your comments.
The fifth photo shows some damage or blemish around the serial number and Birmingham Proof mark on the side of the gun. Any ideas what that may be?
I live in the UK, and the price of the gun is about equivalent to your 1370 dollars.
many thanks
John

kurusu · 03-31-2016, 04:00 PM

Prices in the US of A and in the UK are not really comparable l'm afraid. Anyways, that pistol as all the looks of post war Deutsch Volkspolizei (vopo for short) use.

4 Scale · 03-31-2016, 04:45 PM

The finish appears to have received moderate to heavy buffing and has been re-blued as evidenced by bluing over pitting. The grips are not original and appear to be Vopo (East German).

The other key questions I'd have in trying to evaluate the pistol would be markings/condition of the magazine, bore condition, and which parts do/do not match.

The re-blue, buffing and damage around the receiver serial number relegate it to "shooter" status. Here in the USA its value would be not more than $900 USD and very possibly less depending on the answers to the questions mentioned.

wlyon · 03-31-2016, 05:25 PM

At that price I would avoid it. Bill

Flintlock2016 · 03-31-2016, 05:35 PM

Thanks to kurusu, 4 scale, and wlyon. Thanks all for your replies. I won't bother with buying it as I thought it was a ww2 piece and now find it isn't. Also as wlyon suggests, the price is too high.
Many thanks again guys.
John

ithacaartist · 03-31-2016, 07:44 PM

I think a misunderstanding is afoot, John. It is a byf--code for Mauser--made in 1942, and certainly qualifies as a WWII weapon. Its post-war life happened East of the iron curtain, with the folks' police. There were plenty of pre-WWI Lugers that survived not only the Great War, but the Wiemar period, and WWII, and are now called VoPo as well. Not a reference to era of manufacture, rather, to a particular fate. The VoPo pistols were liquidated by their former Soviet allies, and many wound up in the U.S. Their resume' affords them their own niche in the realm of collecting, albeit limited due to the sometimes harsh treatment when re-worked post-war.

Bill is just saying it is too expensive for one in this condition, in this category. Greg points out buffing and re-bluing, which unless expertly and carefully done, punches holes in what might have been its value!

Flintlock2016 · 04-01-2016, 01:17 AM

Thanks for explaining that Ithacaartist. But as you and Greg say with the rebluing etc. and the comments on the price, irrespective of it being wwii, I think I'll leave it.
Once again thank you for the education. I would be lost without all your expertise out there.
Best wishes from the UK
John

Sergio Natali · 04-01-2016, 05:53 AM

John

I'm in my sixties, and my experience says that guns bought without knowing what you're getting will probably represent expensive mistakes.
Why don't you read and insruct yourself a bit before you start searching for a nice Luger?
There are plenty of books available in your Country, then the Net is full of precious info too, for instance apart our section of FAQ that I would advise you to read over and over, we've got an old friend here (cirelaw) that with the patience of a carthusian has been posting interesting threads mainly on Luger pistols practically every single day.
Do what you want but if you're really fashinated by this marvellous gun there is simply an awful lot to learn.
Just my two bob.

Cheers.

Flintlock2016 · 04-01-2016, 06:36 AM

Thanks for those wise words Sergio, I'll do as you suggest.
John

alanint · 04-01-2016, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

The finish appears to have received moderate to heavy buffing and has been re-blued as evidenced by bluing over pitting. The grips are not original and appear to be Vopo (East German).

That ain't blueing over pitting. That's blueing over the heat damage done to the gun when the chamber was carelessly welded shut under the UKs brutal "Deactivation" program. In this case, with no regard to the pistols outer looks.

Within the confines of the UK laws, at least find an example that was treated with respect upon deactivation.

Sergio Natali · 04-01-2016, 09:05 AM

I agree with Doug, and I'd like to add that to me, deactivating a firearm is a form of disrespect towards the firearm itself, but unfortunately that's the way the cookie crumble in Britain.

Flintlock2016 · 04-01-2016, 10:27 AM

Here, here Sergio.

Flintlock2016 · 04-01-2016, 11:01 AM

Sorry ment to say here here to luger parabellum.
From a week today, 8/4/16, new laws come into effect here where for instance all pistols sold after that date have to have their magazines welded in place. Obviously this means that you won't be able to **** or dry fire the weapon. The barrel will still be closed by inserting a metal rod as always.
I believe with machine guns etc. the intention is to cut the barrel in half and then weld the two pieces together!

4 Scale · 04-01-2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

That ain't blueing over pitting..

A small misunderstanding, I think. I based my "re-blue over pitting" comment on the views of the right side of the gun; forward of the toggle knob and scattered over the frame there seems to be re-blue over light pitting. I don't doubt you are correct as to the heat damage. And I appreciate the learning offered by your comment; I was puzzled by and did not comment on what caused the damage around the serial # (I assume that is what you were referring to). I share the disgust at a lovely and historic pistol being crudely defaced.

I have an example that is re-blued over light pitting and this gun is very similar in appearance.

ithacaartist · 04-01-2016, 01:19 PM

Welding the mag in place will also make it impossible to even field strip the pistol; it will be a true paperweight. From next week on, it might be more satisfying for British collectors to collect pictures of nice-looking or rare firearms. :-(

rhuff · 04-01-2016, 04:11 PM

We ALL know that this added mutilation of handguns in the UK will STOP all gun violence there!!

Flintlock2016 · 04-01-2016, 04:24 PM

Quite right ithacaartist, the gun will be even more useless than it is now. Also the new deactivation is retrospective, so any deactivated gun today that is sold after the 8th. will have to go through this further mutilation.
Rhuff, I couldn't agree more. I don't think any criminal is going to try and reactivate a gun when they can buy a new ak45 on the black market for a few hundred.
The police are even trying to get the government to plug the barrels of antique flintlocks that currently do not need any sort of deactivation.

kurusu · 04-01-2016, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flintlock2016

Quite right ithacaartist, the gun will be even more useless than it is now. Also the new deactivation is retrospective, so any deactivated gun today that is sold after the 8th. will have to go through this further mutilation.
Rhuff, I couldn't agree more. I don't think any criminal is going to try and reactivate a gun when they can buy a new ak45 on the black market for a few hundred.
The police are even trying to get the government to plug the barrels of antique flintlocks that currently do not need any sort of deactivation.

Those news are alarming. Governments really want (under false pretenses I might add) turn their subjects into lambs for slaughter.

And it's global. No one is really safe. Stay sharp.

alanint · 04-02-2016, 12:24 PM

Does this law cover existing pistols, or new pistols appearing on the collector circuit?

More precisely, if I have a "pre welded magazine" pistol and then decide to sell it, will the pistol need to have its magazine welded upon changing hands,(a "new" sale), or will this law create a "two tier" pistol market, (i.e. pre welded versus post welded pistols), as happened with the machinegun market here in the US?

Flintlock2016 · 04-02-2016, 02:56 PM

Hi Alanint
As it stands prior to the 8th April 2016, the deactivation process does not involve welding the magazine. The pistol can be cocked, magazine can be removed and the gun dry fired.
After April 8th. the magazine will be welded in situ, if there is no magazine in the gun a steel bar will be welded in its place. The gun will then be unable to dry fire etc.
This apples to any gun sold after this date, even if it had gone under a deactivation process prior to the 8th.
Once a gun is sold after the 8th. the welding takes place, but if the gun is then sold again there is no need to have it redone, because the welding process needs only to be done once.
If you don't sell the gun after the 8th. there is no need to have it welded it's legal for you to keep it in a pre 8th. April state.
Hope this explains it.
Cheers
John

03-31-2016, 03:48 PM	#1
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Help Again Please Hello All I've been sent some photos of another luger which I may buy if it's ok. As I said in my other post I'm new to lugers and know very little if nothing about them so I'm hoping that once again you wonderful guys out there will help. I've not seen the pistol myself but I've uploaded some photos I've been sent and would love to have your comments. The fifth photo shows some damage or blemish around the serial number and Birmingham Proof mark on the side of the gun. Any ideas what that may be? I live in the UK, and the price of the gun is about equivalent to your 1370 dollars. many thanks John Attached Thumbnails

03-31-2016, 05:25 PM	#4
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,615 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,522 Times in 940 Posts	At that price I would avoid it. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-31-2016, 07:44 PM	#6
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,284 Thanks: 7,012 Thanked 2,478 Times in 1,320 Posts	I think a misunderstanding is afoot, John. It is a byf--code for Mauser--made in 1942, and certainly qualifies as a WWII weapon. Its post-war life happened East of the iron curtain, with the folks' police. There were plenty of pre-WWI Lugers that survived not only the Great War, but the Wiemar period, and WWII, and are now called VoPo as well. Not a reference to era of manufacture, rather, to a particular fate. The VoPo pistols were liquidated by their former Soviet allies, and many wound up in the U.S. Their resume' affords them their own niche in the realm of collecting, albeit limited due to the sometimes harsh treatment when re-worked post-war. Bill is just saying it is too expensive for one in this condition, in this category. Greg points out buffing and re-bluing, which unless expertly and carefully done, punches holes in what might have been its value! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-01-2016, 05:53 AM	#8
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	John I'm in my sixties, and my experience says that guns bought without knowing what you're getting will probably represent expensive mistakes. Why don't you read and insruct yourself a bit before you start searching for a nice Luger? There are plenty of books available in your Country, then the Net is full of precious info too, for instance apart our section of FAQ that I would advise you to read over and over, we've got an old friend here (cirelaw) that with the patience of a carthusian has been posting interesting threads mainly on Luger pistols practically every single day. Do what you want but if you're really fashinated by this marvellous gun there is simply an awful lot to learn. Just my two bob. Cheers. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

04-01-2016, 09:05 AM	#11
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I agree with Doug, and I'd like to add that to me, deactivating a firearm is a form of disrespect towards the firearm itself, but unfortunately that's the way the cookie crumble in Britain. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-31-2016, 04:00 PM	#2
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	Prices in the US of A and in the UK are not really comparable l'm afraid. Anyways, that pistol as all the looks of post war Deutsch Volkspolizei (vopo for short) use.

03-31-2016, 04:45 PM	#3
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	The finish appears to have received moderate to heavy buffing and has been re-blued as evidenced by bluing over pitting. The grips are not original and appear to be Vopo (East German). The other key questions I'd have in trying to evaluate the pistol would be markings/condition of the magazine, bore condition, and which parts do/do not match. The re-blue, buffing and damage around the receiver serial number relegate it to "shooter" status. Here in the USA its value would be not more than $900 USD and very possibly less depending on the answers to the questions mentioned.

03-31-2016, 05:35 PM	#5
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks to kurusu, 4 scale, and wlyon. Thanks all for your replies. I won't bother with buying it as I thought it was a ww2 piece and now find it isn't. Also as wlyon suggests, the price is too high. Many thanks again guys. John

04-01-2016, 01:17 AM	#7
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for explaining that Ithacaartist. But as you and Greg say with the rebluing etc. and the comments on the price, irrespective of it being wwii, I think I'll leave it. Once again thank you for the education. I would be lost without all your expertise out there. Best wishes from the UK John

04-01-2016, 06:36 AM	#9
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for those wise words Sergio, I'll do as you suggest. John

04-01-2016, 10:27 AM	#12
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Here, here Sergio.

04-01-2016, 11:01 AM	#13
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Sorry ment to say here here to luger parabellum. From a week today, 8/4/16, new laws come into effect here where for instance all pistols sold after that date have to have their magazines welded in place. Obviously this means that you won't be able to **** or dry fire the weapon. The barrel will still be closed by inserting a metal rod as always. I believe with machine guns etc. the intention is to cut the barrel in half and then weld the two pieces together!

04-01-2016, 01:19 PM	#15
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,284 Thanks: 7,012 Thanked 2,478 Times in 1,320 Posts	Welding the mag in place will also make it impossible to even field strip the pistol; it will be a true paperweight. From next week on, it might be more satisfying for British collectors to collect pictures of nice-looking or rare firearms. :-( __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

04-01-2016, 04:11 PM	#16
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	We ALL know that this added mutilation of handguns in the UK will STOP all gun violence there!!

04-01-2016, 04:24 PM	#17
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Quite right ithacaartist, the gun will be even more useless than it is now. Also the new deactivation is retrospective, so any deactivated gun today that is sold after the 8th. will have to go through this further mutilation. Rhuff, I couldn't agree more. I don't think any criminal is going to try and reactivate a gun when they can buy a new ak45 on the black market for a few hundred. The police are even trying to get the government to plug the barrels of antique flintlocks that currently do not need any sort of deactivation.

04-02-2016, 12:24 PM	#19
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Does this law cover existing pistols, or new pistols appearing on the collector circuit? More precisely, if I have a "pre welded magazine" pistol and then decide to sell it, will the pistol need to have its magazine welded upon changing hands,(a "new" sale), or will this law create a "two tier" pistol market, (i.e. pre welded versus post welded pistols), as happened with the machinegun market here in the US?

04-02-2016, 02:56 PM	#20
Flintlock2016 User Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 35 Thanks: 35 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Alanint As it stands prior to the 8th April 2016, the deactivation process does not involve welding the magazine. The pistol can be cocked, magazine can be removed and the gun dry fired. After April 8th. the magazine will be welded in situ, if there is no magazine in the gun a steel bar will be welded in its place. The gun will then be unable to dry fire etc. This apples to any gun sold after this date, even if it had gone under a deactivation process prior to the 8th. Once a gun is sold after the 8th. the welding takes place, but if the gun is then sold again there is no need to have it redone, because the welding process needs only to be done once. If you don't sell the gun after the 8th. there is no need to have it welded it's legal for you to keep it in a pre 8th. April state. Hope this explains it. Cheers John