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Unread 03-07-2004, 02:31 PM   #1
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Post Krieg#3

All,

Thanks to the excellent help and expertise of our own John D. and the sincere desire of fellow member Bill White to avoid keeping a full rig 1943 Kregie locked up in a bank vault, I will be adding it to my collection shortly.

Will do pix when I have rig and time.

Tom A.
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Unread 03-07-2004, 09:33 PM   #2
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John D's worst nightmare coming true. The Armstrong machine has entered Kriehoff territory.
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Unread 03-08-2004, 07:21 PM   #3
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OH NO!!! TomA is getting serious about Kreighoff's. And a 1943 rig too!!! This shoots my plans of getting a new computer and a digital camera to show off my beautiful 1943 with two matching mags. <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> Oh well, maybe he won't know how to use a digital camera and how to post pictures. There is still hope for me to beat "The Machine". I gotta have a drink. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
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Unread 03-08-2004, 08:04 PM   #4
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Rest easy Norm. I still am clueless on uploading pix. I am pretty good, however, at finding nice things to photograph, had I the skill to do so.

Enjoy your cocktail and DO NOT spill it into your laptop.

Tom A.
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Unread 03-08-2004, 09:54 PM   #5
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>Rest easy Norm. I still am clueless on uploading pix.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hmmm... Would you like me to take the pics and post them before you get your RIG??!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

It would be a sacrafice - but I'd be willing to try... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

OH - the day you have more Kriegs then me - you may find that you can't post any longer....

LOL!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Seriously - CONGRATS TOM!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
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Unread 03-08-2004, 10:25 PM   #6
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John D.

My good friend and enabler on this exercise, pls photo and post. I am certain you can do it better than I and I know you have the piece and I do not (Yet!).

Thanks for all of the generous help...this is Z'ackly what this forum is about!

A tip 'o the hat and a raisin' of the glass..

Tom A.
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Unread 03-08-2004, 10:34 PM   #7
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Hi Tom,

Aww - it was my pleasure. While I know my write-up was rather long, it was a plesure to assist - it's a fine 1943 RIG - somewhat rare finding an "unmolested" 1943 RIG at that, which this is. My congrats on that - it's a fine piece.

Further - before I pack it up tomorrow to you, I'll try to post some pics in the Gallery for you and some others on the Forum to enjoy.

That - as well - would be my pleasure.... My thanks for your permission to do so..!!!

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Unread 03-08-2004, 10:54 PM   #8
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All,

Following is John D.'s thorough analysis of the HK rig I have purchased (Sight unseen) for a substantial sum. Suffice it to say, I would be *extremely* reluctant to part with so much cash if I did not have a great deal of confidence in the seller and/or the "assessor". Fortunately, I had both. It is a wonderful and rare thing when such things happen.

It is the assistance of such quality which is so freely given to fellow collectors that makes this forum the great place it is. Pls, lets not let this be compromised!

Here is John D.'s assistance...

"Dear Bill and Tom,

It has been my pleasure to inspect the following Krieghoff. I hope you find the following information of assistance and of value. Should you have any questions regarding any comments, please feel free to ask.

Details: 1943 Krieghoff - SN: 11337

Overall and conclusions. The 1943 production period for Heinrich Krieghoff was somewhat limited. Mr. Gibson theorizes a total 1943
production of 300 units. However, based on serialization and collector records, there may have been slightly fewer, especially given the noted and verified examples from that production date. Further, few â??1943â?
matched 2-mag RIGS have been verified and authenticated. Most commonly encountered are RIGs with one matched magazine or â??RIGSâ? that have been boosted or assembled post-war by over zealous collectors. With this specimen, I do not believe that is the case â?? and rather â?? it is
unmolested and original in all respects, including the small parts and accessories (holster and tool).

To emphasize, any imperfections noted and outlined below (NB: bluing, trigger straw, grip screw and toggle breech areas specifically detailed below) are offset by the overall condition of this somewhat rarer HK
1943 two matched magazine RIG.

Further and specific to this specimen â?? the serial number would place it at the beginning of the 1943 production, so the proofs/stamps/digits are also correct for this piece. I did not note any attempts to boost the overall condition of this RIG, and again â?? appears as original. To note, the following characteristics of this variation and specific to this
specimen:

BLUE: darker, shows less polish then comparative early years, but better then later years. GRIPS: Black Bakelite. MAGAZINES â?? Haenel -
blue aluminum base â?? either FXO or 122 with E/37. TOGGLE STAMP: Variation C-3 (Gibson).

Individual details specific to this specific specimen follow.

Accessories
Holster: Correct as noted. LWaA Second Stage Acceptance inside, no manufacturer mark. This holster is original and is believed to be
originally issued with this Kreighoff, given the match of the distinct marks to the wear points on this specific example. Note pull-tab wear
marks, toggle ears marks and corresponding muzzle wear of the firearm to the Luger. Later holsters or those originally carrying another
manufacturer Luger will have another set of distinguishing mark.
Overall condition: Very Good+ with slight wear. Wear predisposes the conclusion that this RIG was carried on a regular basis. Leather is
excellent (not weak or over treated), stitching excellent condition and believed to be original, hardware, pull, strap, loops, interior in Very
Good condition. No repairs noted.

Tool: Correct as noted. LWaA first acceptance Stage 1 noted with correct placement, orientation and size. Slight wear at elbow and flat. Rated at 95%+ overall.

Magazine(s): Two presented for inspection. Both magazines are correct and matched to the serial number (11337) being Haenel manufactured
blued, aluminum based, pinned. Typically noted in the HK serial range 10000-12000, they are distinguished with the â??122â? over the E/37. LWaA
First Acceptance Inspection Stage 1 is present on both with correct size, placement and orientation. Serialization, digit size and
orientation is correct, without any indication of re-stamp or flattening. Under high intensity light, both magazines appear as original and verified as being originally issued with this Krieghoff without being boosted or forged. Both rate at 90%+, showing slight wear on body and aluminum base(s).

Frame â?? overall: Markings, Serialization, Right Rail, and Inspector Marks: Overall, the frame would rate at 95+ plus and is in excellent
condition. I found no attempts to boost or forge any markings nor â??improveâ? any aspect of the overall condition. Serialization is correct
in digit character, placement, size and orientation. The right rail has the correct LWaA First Acceptance Stamp â?? Stage 2 of the â??lateâ?
variation â?? which is correct for serialized HKâ??s in the 10,000+ serialized block. The stamp itself is correct in formation, size and
placement. To note in this specimen, that the Inspector mark digits appear in the front lug well (correct) rather then the â??Six Point Starâ?
or Digit inspectors make under the right grip panel. There is one small flaw by the left Grip Screw (see details below). Details of the
individual parts are as follows:

Interior Polishing: Correct as noted. Typical of HK final fit/finish hand lapping.

Gesichert Mark: Die Type B â?? correct as a Krieghoff Stamp. 1942/1943 HKâ??s will show some die wear, which this specimen shows.

Frame Milling telltales: Correct for HK. This is an HK manufactured frame.

Frame â?? small parts:
Grips: Grips are Black Bakelite. Both are correct and appear as original. The right panel rates as EXCELLENT, while the left panel has
a small â??flatâ? (7mmx4mm) at the center. The left panel would rate at VG+.

Grip Screws: Both are original and correct. The right screw head shows
no signs of abuse while the left screw head has a slight roll-over, which is not uncommon. A small bright area by the left grip screw is
noted on the frame. Both Grip Screws would rate at VG+/EXCELLENT.

Trigger: Correct military serialization and placement/size. Strong straw hue is retained throughout, especially for a field piece. Slight
straw wear on the edging, especially on the right/inside edge. Correct
and common. Rated at 92%.

Locking Bolt: Correct military serialization and placement/size for the 1943 production. Characteristic HK flat buff strip is present and
strong, and diamonds/tab are correct as noted. Rated at 95%.

Mag Release and Spring: Strong fire-blue without any virtual wear. Rated at 99%+.

Sear Bar Safety Lever: Correct military serialization and placement/size. No variations noted and correct for this specimen.
Without any corrosion points, this piece rates at 96%+.

Safety Catch: Correct without external military markings/serialization. Strawing retains excellent hue, with slight wear on the high slots of the tab. Some dirt between the tab ridges. Rated at 90%+.

Hold Open: Excellent condition with LWaA 1 stamp (underside). No evidence of camming and rounding and appears as original to this
speciman. Rated at 92%.

Coupling Assy: Excellent condition and shows little signs of use. Correct machining marks. Rated at 98%+.

Thumb Print/Frame Flame hardening: Both flame hardened telltales exist (thumbprint and toggle release ramps). All areas are correct and have
not been boosted or improved. These are original to this HK manufactured frame and to the Krieghoff manufacturing process.

Top End Details:
Overall: Serialization and right receiver are correct as noted: Serial number is correct in digit size, orientation and placement. No
indications of double-strikes nor boosting. Right receiver shows correct LWaA 1 â?? LWaA 2 â?? Proof combination, orientation. Given the
1943 production, these Acceptence/Proofs are correct for this specimen. Further, as typical for this production period â?? â??witness marksâ? are
not present. Overall â?? the top end would rate at 94%+, with one bright streak and normal hi-point wear marks from firing/carrying. Details of
the individual parts are as follows:

Chamber Date: Correct as noted. The digit baseline, offset and placement indicate a verified HK Chamber stamp. While the â??4â? is
lighter, this is typical of the HK chamber date variations on specimen to specimen. This is an original HK struck Chamber Date.

Toggle Assembly: Correct as noted.
- Rear link: Toggle ears are correct in diamond pattern and chamfer. Rearsight base has the correct â??Vâ? and is not altered. The flycut on
the aperture is HK perspective is also correct â?? and therefore, the rear link is HK Manufacture.
- Center Link: Toggle Stamp is â??HK Die Type C-3â?, distinguishing this production from earlier and later HK production. Stamp is excellent
with 1mm LWaA code noted on underside.
- Breechblock: This area has a minor mperfection. To the right and left side of the extractor, there are two metal â??splintersâ? which have lifted, but have not separated from this area. While noted on other specimens, these are apparent on close inspection, but do not detract
from the collectability of this piece. However, this piece should not be fired, at the risk of furthering this imperfection. Overall, the
breechblock is correct in serialization, LWaA stamps placement and orientation, and original to this HK. The breechface shown no signs of
abuse.

Overall â?? the toggle assembly is rated at 90%+ with the imperfection as noted.

Extractor: Correct as a late stamped Krieghoff GELADEN. No attempts apparent to efface the extractor, which would indicate commercial
production. Production for this extractor was destined and accepted as Military. Correct as noted, rated at 95% +.

Firing Ping/Spring/Retainer: Correct as noted. LWaA acceptance stamps on both retainer/firing pin as correct for this period of HK manufacture. Overall, the assembly rates at 90%.

Barrel: Correct as noted. Gauge is correct in both orientation (parallel to the barrel) and placement to this production year. LWaW
Acceptence is correct in die size and placement. 1mm Serial number is correct to matched frame serialization. No indication that this is a
replacement barrel, and it is original to the HK specimen. Excellent bore, crown. Overall, the barrel rates at 97%., with slight wear from
holster carry and crown area brightening.

Sight/Base: Correct for Military and 9mm HK production. High spot wear from holster carry, but rates at 85% overall. The sight is original HK.

Ejector: Correct as noted. Slight wear on high spot outer edge, but rates at 90%+. Correct HK tell tales.

Axel Pin: Correct as noted. Non-serialized version, but lighter HK telltale machining noted. Rated at 80%.

Coupling Link: Correct. LWaA noted and proper in placement and die size. No apparent wear.

Sideplate Assembly: Military serialization noted â??37â? (2 diget) with correct LWaA inspection. Lever accordingly and properly marked. The sideplate assembly is correct in all respects, and is original to this
HK specimen. High Spot blue wear is apparent on ridges from holster carry, and therefore, would rate at 88%. This is correct and normal.

Sear Bar Assy: Correct as noted. Contains the more standard markings/maching/marks rather than the serialized etching (very uncommon). The sear assembly is HK manufacture and believed to be
original to this specimen.

With Warm Regards and Respect,

John Dunkle
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Unread 03-10-2004, 02:21 PM   #9
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heinz:
<strong>John D's worst nightmare coming true. The Armstrong machine has entered Kriehoff territory.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Yea, yea, yea.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

I figure I'll let that Armstong guy go after the "common" Kriegs (is there such a thing??!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) and I'll continue to focus on the other Kriegs - like the one below..

Seriously - Tom is an outstanding collector of Lugers, and I'm pleased to count him as a fellow Krieg collector as well...

Oh - here is one of mine - "36" at 99+% with it's LWaA HK Shoulder holster (Jerry B. has seen this one in person - and yes, it is correct (Hi Jerry!!):

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Unread 03-10-2004, 09:41 PM   #10
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Beautiful. Thanks for showing it while we wait for Tom's pictures.
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Unread 03-10-2004, 10:23 PM   #11
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Heinz,

The pics are posted in the gallery...and the thanx go to our own John D. for pix and commentary. Jeez, if everyone in the collecting world was like him, the world would be a MUCH BETTER place.

JD,
The package arrived and it is *better than anticipated*...I am exceptionally pleased. The flak badgearm band and French franc notes were the icing on a very good cake. Thanks, thanks, thanks!

Say, whadda you need for that shiny Luger with the shoulder holster listed above?

Tom A.
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Unread 03-10-2004, 10:57 PM   #12
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>JD,
The package arrived and it is *better than anticipated*.........</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">OUTSTANDING....!!!! <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> I thought you would be pleased. It's fantastic. Also - I didn't open the wrap from Bill with the Armband - currency - etc., as, while I collect things like that, they are not my area, so I didn't even open that part of Bill's package...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>....Say, whadda you need for that shiny Luger with the shoulder holster listed above?.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hmmm - maybe I should post my other HKs with unique, proofed shoulder holsters..? Yea - they are sort of very different - and very rare. One is a double-matched shoulder-holster RIG, but the "36" above only has one matched mag....

Tom - my thanks again to you and Bill for the privilege of writing up your most recent acquisition. It is a fine one, to be sure....

My best to you, always - and a "tip of the glass" in congratulations.....

John
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Unread 03-11-2004, 09:44 PM   #13
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Tom, we all know those pics in the gallery are not "your" pics :-)Your Kreig, but not your pics.

John, please post more of these proofed shoulder holsters.
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Unread 03-11-2004, 10:01 PM   #14
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Heinz, mein freunde...

Of course they aren't my pix. Hells bells, I still can't upload pix..but what I can do, well, I'd druther do than be good at uploading pix.

Now looking for an Exc Flak Officer's tunic und mutze...got to have the stuff that went with the gun.

As dust settles, will send pix of S date and P code acquired at Louisville.

Tom A.
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Unread 03-11-2004, 10:22 PM   #15
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heinz:
<strong>...John, please post more of these proofed shoulder holsters.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">It would be my pleasure... I just added a lengthy review of a Mauser Banner in another section (OK - so I stepped out a bit.. HEH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) - but I'd like to do a full presentation on the "36" you see above and some of the others I have "stashed" in my collection that have never been presented... How about a 1940 double-matched MAG shoulder holster RIG as well, Or - a 194.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

It would be my pleasure - but - I have to say, it takes a while to do one with photos and analysis correctly... I *finally* finished the Banner write-up today after working on it for quite a while!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
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Unread 03-11-2004, 10:42 PM   #16
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John D.

I am doing some work for a client that *may* afford me the opportunity to get to Portsmouth, (State Motto: Live, Freeze and Die)NH.

Will try and give you a heads up as I would like to buy you and your significant other dinner.

Tom A.
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Unread 03-11-2004, 10:46 PM   #17
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Hey Tom..!!!

It would be our pleasure!!! Right now, though - we are coming out of Winter - and headed into mud season, which occurs just before "black fly season ("no-see-ums"). If you want, you can plan your visit for this summer. In NH - this year - I think Summer is scheduled for July 2-July3. July 4th, we head into Fall......

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