ITS JUST NOT WORTH IT!!!!!

Well I know of someone that was just recently "BURNED" badly!!!!Well he is out 3200.00!!! But didnt really find out that his peice was an expertly done fraudulant piece until 2 months later. They went as far as even adding slight holster wear to it!!!Im sure nothing you guys havent seen already.Im new to all this, there is no way in hell Im getting involved in this hobby.I want very much to collect a few nice "original pieces", but its not worth messing with and taking your chances, it like playing Russian roulette. I just cant understand why our government or justice department doesnt do something about fraudulant dealers. Personally they ought to be lined up and have thier hands cut off, or better yet lined up and machined gunned.Im sure it would stop then.I dont think the guy will get his money back, but he is seeking legal action against this person.He has been collecting for a while too.I dont own a Luger or a P-38 yet, but Im not looking any further. it seems that only the "real experts" that have been involved in this hobby for years and years are the only ones that stand a chance in hell, from getting ripped off.But when I see things like this happen, it really is very discouraging to the new people that want to get involved in this hobby. Im 37, and life is too short, there are better things. I am still however considering getting a shooter grade, but that will be the extent of my Luger collecting. just cant understand why a person would want to do that to another person. Is money all that important??? I guess it is to some people. As I was told from an early age, "its the root of all evil"!!!!

[Dok]

I understand your feelings completely. It's one of the reasons I choose not to collect. I have a shooter that I'm VERY sure of it's lineage, and I paid the princely sum of $375 for it. I had it reworked and it shoots like a dream.


The Luger and it's history is a fascinating subject, and I feel you can learn and study all of it without buying and owning (which is what I'm attempting to do) and maybe someday, I might even be good enough to spot them fakes, but in the meantime, I'll love them from a distance.


Dok

When $$$$$$$ is involved, it will happen!


Would you buy a diamond based on the seller's word and description from someone you did not know? and with no written guarantee?


Well.....when you pay that much for a gun and you don't know what you are buying, you are at risk! Learn about them, first...or hire a pro!


Who Knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?

The Shadow Knows!

Hehehehehehehehehe

[John Sabato]

[Soap Box Mode ON]


You are absolutely right Mark, to some, it's the money that is everything, and honor means nothing.


It isn't money that is the rool of all evil...The verse in the King James Version of the Bible is:


Timothy I 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.


The balance of that verse also warns that those who practice this love will also suffer from their choice many times over.


The actions of others is no reason to turn away from a very enjoyable hobby, or for that matter any activity in which you voluntarily choose to participate. You just have to take precautions against a fraud, be it intentional or otherwise.


The person you buy from may actually believe that the article is genuine. When you buy a high dollar collector's item, just make sure that the written conditions of the sale include return for full refund if the item EVER proves to be fraudulent, and that all recovery and shipping costs are the responsibility of the seller. If the seller won't agree to that, then go elsewhere.


Find what you want, gather wise opinions from those that should know, and tread carefully. Don't let the actions of others keep you from doing what you really wanted to do.


To do so would be like allowing terrorist activity to keep us from continuing to live in the this country according to the ideals this country was founded on. Stand up for the principles that you believe in... truth, honesty, and the American way...


But don't be turned off because something like this "might" happen.


[Soap Box Mode OFF]


regards, -John Sabato

[sidhartha]

It is very difficult to try and understand why some of these people want to sell lugers that are known to be fakes. Greed for making a fast buck I suppose or just plain ignorance. But don't let it discourage you from collecting. I have five lugers now(3 shooters and 2 all matching #'s) and find them very interesting. I am only purchasing shooters for now until I can learn more about them. This site and the guys that contribute are a great help. It actually makes it easier for us to collect than it was for our fathers who did not have this instant resource!


As for why the government or the justice department does not do anything to stop the people that are doing the forgering. Well you have to understand that niether the government or the justice department really want you to have the guns in the first place.

Hey, I just purchased a double mark from Thor, based on the dialog of this forum, and based on what I saw and read on Thor's Web Site. I did this sight unseen and feel very comfortable about it.

Why did I make a purchase from Thor? Because I had bought an ERMA LA .22 for twice what it was worth. I got burned. So, I chalked it up as my "educational luger", and decided that I would not let the experience deter me, and drive on to find the shooter I desired. Thor is providing me that shooter. I have been shooting a little Stoeger for years, and decided I wanted more.

[Marvin]

Mark,


I agree with what the other post say and would like to add this; a dealer who KNOWINGLY sells a fraudulent firearm should have his *&^% shot off, but we can't do that. We must learn about our hobby to know what is correct and what is not.


I do love these pistols, but I don't collect the high dollar Lugers. I stay with the more common type which do not need to be faked as the prices are not into the several thousands. You can enjoy collecting Lugers by staying with this type. You should not get "burned", they are well documented so you can know what it is supposed to be!


I also say that even the import marked Lugers have aplace in any collection and they can be purchased at reasonable prices and you know what you are gettting.


marvin

IMHO,guns are a hobby. You do it for fun. For me its like laying down $ on a pool table. Can you win or not? Can you stand to lose or not? I've won some great games and had a ball. I've also lost my a** and cried all the way home. But nobody made me do it and I willingly put my $ down for the game. In a game like collector guns where there are no rules, guarantees,ect., there is always a chance somebody will run the table on you. If you can't afford to take the risk then don't go into the pool hall.


Roadkill

[Luke]

Mark, as a relatively new collector, I share your feelings, except maybe those about killing crooked dealers.

That's going a little too far for me; but, having said that, I must admit that I have been very discouraged (and may have felt like killing) after a couple of recent purchases. Fortunately, I figured the problem out and was able to return the fake Lugers during my trial period. In the last case, I believe that the dealer didn't know that it was a fake and that he had been taken by some earlier seller.


Even when you are able to return the Luger to the dealer; however, you are still out $60 - $100 for shipping both ways.


Your sentiment about not collecting Lugers because of the fakes is something I have felt a number of times, however, at this point I am still hopeful. I believe that it was "Tom" on this forum who once wrote that he would not buy a Luger over $3000 unless he personally could verify its history. I believe that is good advice.


Best of luck.

The above post all on target IMO, but you (we) should also relize that this problem in not confined to Lugers or even the most abused in Luger dealings, everything of value is being expertly faked and it doesn't seem to be keeping prices or interest down. What it comes down to is really knowing what your doing and not relying on reputations alone as often the dealers are fooled themselves. For example I have handled and examined hundreds of Lugers over the last 30 years, while this experience gives me some confidence in judging basic military models, I would not dream of buying (unless truthfully out of the woodwork) a high end rare variation without extensive additional research that included confering with collectors of that variation and handleing examples..etc...befor going out to purchase one. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!

What seem to me to be happening in most all fields of collecting is that a person will get some reference books (maybe even not!) and have a lot of cash and maybe a couple of years of being around the hobby. At that point they think that they are ready to lay out several thousand dollars on some fantastic example that they are not ready for (in knowledge). Sure sign of this is when they have to start asking for a bunch of second opinions and the rest is always history. PS take a look at Confederate firearms and belt plates or WWII militaria....by comparison, Lugers are fairly safe!

[bill m]

Hi Mark,

You are correct in your assumptions in my opinioin. As a new collector, you do not have a prayer! Every "shark" out there is hunting for you and can spot you a mile away. You are not known in the Luger circles, not known to any of the "sharks", and you do not have enough expertise to be able to tell the difference, or hang around with anyone that does. All this "buddy-buddy" stuff is to make a sale, win your confidence, and get your business. There is a lot of difference in buying a $400 shooter and having a satisfactory transaction, and buying a $1000, $2000, or $3000 collector piece. You buy a book, read a little about some variation, and then trust some line of jabber and buy a Luger. The 3 day inspection is just about worthless to you as you aren't able to tell if it is correct or not, do not know anyone close to help you, and besides, you want it to be correct as you want a Luger.


There is hope though, and all is not lost, as there are people out here that will help you. The only hope you actually have is to have someone take you under there wing and educate you, show you first hand, explain stuff to you, and for you to look at as many Lugers as you can and compare the blue, straw, and stampings on them. As far as you reading books, that is a great idea and you should read everything that you can, but it is not going to keep you from getting in trouble. Only experience will do that, and that only gives you two choices, to buy and learn as you get burned, or get help from collectors that are willing to help who have been through the very same learning experience. It just depends on how much you want to be in this hobby. There are no private collectors that I am aware of that like these fakes or refurbished items, and they are a problem for them too, as they run into them everywhere. It is a great hobby with great rewards, and some great people in it, great friends, but beware, as collectors do it for the "hunt" and the hobby, and a lot of business-men do it strictly for the money.

[Johnny Peppers]

Best to stick to collecting eggs and coconuts if you want to be sure what you buy has not been messed with. Fraud brought on by greed is in every facet of collecting. No collecting field is squeeky clean.

On another forum a new buyer proudly posted photographs of his latest purchase, and a beauty it was with virtually 100% finish. One of the other posters remembered seeing the firearm in an auction catalog along with the serial number, and looked it up. Sure enough the pistol was in about 70% condition when advertised in the auction catalog. The firearm was highly collectible in the 70% finish, but now it has been stripped of that in order that someone could make a tidy profit at someone else's expense.

A few years back I happened to be at the right place at the right time to see an extremely rare Luger come out of the woodwork. Everything was there, but it was mis-matched. About a year later the Luger resurfaced, only this time it was all matching with an interesting mark applied to the rear toggle assembly. The work was so expertly done that if I had not seen the pistol while it was mis-matched, I would not have know it had major surgery. Not only that, but it had acquired provenance which went along with the pistol.

[Dok]

Excellent points bill m makes! I guess I would not buy a second hand car without taking my mechanic to check it out, so bill's comment about getting your local (recognized) Luger expert to help out males a lot of sense. Hey bill... there's a new side line business for you... Luger Consultant... charge by the hour


Dok

[Thor]

Dok, Tom Armstrong seems to like to really put his purchases under a microscope! I think he would be a great choice. I loved his article about his initial inspection of the Navy he bought! Thor

Let me take this opportunity to thank Robert Lamb of near Richmond Virginia who, in 1994, took time to chat with me on two occasions about ethics and risk in gun collecting. One of his favorite sayings was, "there's a little larceny in everybody's heart." He explained how common was alteration and misrepresentation in arms sales. He also suggested buying books and that studying many guns for a year BEFORE buying anything was alright. I did pretty much that. What I did buy was from Roses Dept Store and other sources for less than $100.


I have never paid more than $900 for a luger and nearly all I have were bought for under $500.


At this time I know of several altered lugers for sale for prices in the many thousands. It is fine to be a student of lugers and not buy any.


Be careful but have fun, too.


dave

[BILL]

It's ironic, but some of the people who cry the loudest are the individuals who think they are getting a 'steal' and then find out that their 'killer deal' was really someone getting rid of something of little value. Knowing what you want, what it is supposed to look like and who you are buying it from are essential. Also knowing how much it should cost is essential. If it appears too cheap or too expensive..find out why. Don't be afraid to ask for a written description of what you are buying (then it is clear to both of you what your expectations are). Ego is a funny thing..people will take a beating rather than admit they were fooled. Those same people are the biggest whiners about fakery and skullduggery. One question you have to ask.."What do these guys who learned their lesson the hard way do with their 'forged' pistols?"

When someone is willing to abide by good business ethics and provide good service even when very few dollars are involved, that matters to me. Hence, I respect Tom Heller, lugerholsterrepair (TB), and Thor. There are other good guys but they are rare in total. Reputation is extremely valuable in collectibles.


Care to collect old furniture? Cars? Coins? I wonder how many 1793 large cents were suddenly "minted" when one sold for $115,000 back in the early 80s?


Never be afraid to demand guarantees and return policies in writing.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


Tim

Right on the money advise. But one must also be patient...