cal. 1902 Carbine

gmborkovic · 01-19-2019, 02:20 PM

Saw a 1902 carbine at the Club Show . It is chambered for 9mm?
Vendor/collector said it is one of ten. He got the gun from Charles
Kenyon, Jr. I have read "Lugers at Random" and found no 9mm,
just 30 cal? Any input. Mike

ithacaartist · 01-19-2019, 02:32 PM

In general, pre-WWI carbines were 7.65 and post-WWI were 9 mm.

[edit] According to Dwight's comment below, my generalization here is not correct. His take on the subject is better informed, and seems better-reasoned as well.

Ron Wood · 01-19-2019, 02:47 PM

Mike,
There have been reports of 9mm 1902 Carbines, so it is possible they may exist. I saw one about 40 years ago but did not get a chance to examine the chamber to see if it was an original DWM stepped chamber. Will you get a chance to examine the carbine again? I would really be interested to know if it is an authentic 9mm 1902 Carbine and the serial number.
Ron

gmborkovic · 01-19-2019, 05:45 PM

Gentlemen. thank you for prompt reply. The vendor is at the Lakeland Show this wknd. I will visit or call on Mon. and secure Sn. and chamber markings. Mike

sheepherder · 01-19-2019, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Gentlemen. thank you for prompt reply. The vendor is at the Lakeland Show this wknd. I will visit or call on Mon. and secure Sn. and chamber markings. Mike

Ask if you can take pics. What's the price? Or is it display only?

Give him the Lugerforum URL. Tell him we love to hear from Luger carbine owners.

Dwight Gruber · 01-20-2019, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Saw a 1902 carbine at the Club Show . It is chambered for 9mm?
Vendor/collector said it is one of ten. He got the gun from Charles
Kenyon, Jr. I have read "Lugers at Random" and found no 9mm,
just 30 cal? Any input. Mike

All the reliable reports are carbines in 7,65 mm (.30 cal.). The contemporary DWM cartridge catalog includes a carbine cartridge in 9mm, so the existence of the corresponding weapon must not be ruled out.

Ron is quite correct in the necessity of observing a "step" in the chamber. This is not a chamber marking, it is an actual machining characteristic of the chamber reaming and a requirement for authenticating early DWM 9mm pistols. (It must be noted here that I posses an assuredly counterfeit Old Model short-frame pistol in 9mm with a stepped chamber, so authenticating a 9mm carbine must combine the presence of a stepped chamber with other recognized characteristics.)

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...mber+machining

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 01-20-2019, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

In general, pre-WWI carbines were 7.65 and post-WWI were 9 mm.

The reports of Weimar-era carbines are overwhelmingly 7.65mm (.30 cal.). Manufacture of the scant handful of post-war DWM carbines in the German military caliber of 9x19mm is a clear violation of the Verasilles treaty, and requires specific explanation.

--Dwight

gmborkovic · 01-21-2019, 12:10 PM

Gentlemen, the more I read about the early Lugers, the more I come to realize that I know nothing.
Im going to meet the seller for an in depth examination. Will report later. Mike

gmborkovic · 01-26-2019, 01:50 PM

Sirs, thanks for patience. Carbine is in the 22K-24K serial number range. I have found a few
30cal. carbines for sale in this range of numbers. I have not found any 9mm to compare.
Im afraid the seller is into it a little on the heavy side, so Im backing out for right now.
Mike

CptCurl · 01-26-2019, 02:29 PM

It would be interesting to know what the seller wants for it.

Is it a 9mm?

Curl

gmborkovic · 01-26-2019, 06:59 PM

Hello Curt, yes 9mm. Asking $20,000. A little steep for me. I can not find a 9mm to verify its heritage. Is Charles Kenyon,Jr. still with us? Mike

Dwight Gruber · 01-27-2019, 03:26 PM

A real 9mm carbine in the proper serial range would be worth the money. Any word on the chamber step?

--Dwight

gmborkovic · 01-28-2019, 01:06 PM

Hello Dwight, Im out of my league here with carbines. What is a chamber step and what does its presence signify? Any pics available? Mike

Dwight Gruber · 01-28-2019, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmborkovic

Hello Dwight, Im out of my league here with carbines. What is a chamber step and what does its presence signify? Any pics available? Mike

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...mber+machining

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 01-28-2019, 06:35 PM

Click on the link to a previous thread that Dwight has provided and look at the second post...it should pretty much tell you what the step is for and what to look for in the chamber.
Ron

gmborkovic · 01-29-2019, 11:32 AM

Sirs, thank you for the clarification on the step. Have seen them before.
Should the barrel be numbered to the rec.? Mike

01-19-2019, 02:20 PM	#1
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	cal. 1902 Carbine Saw a 1902 carbine at the Club Show . It is chambered for 9mm? Vendor/collector said it is one of ten. He got the gun from Charles Kenyon, Jr. I have read "Lugers at Random" and found no 9mm, just 30 cal? Any input. Mike

01-19-2019, 02:32 PM	#2
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,283 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	In general, pre-WWI carbines were 7.65 and post-WWI were 9 mm. [edit] According to Dwight's comment below, my generalization here is not correct. His take on the subject is better informed, and seems better-reasoned as well. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

01-19-2019, 02:47 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Mike, There have been reports of 9mm 1902 Carbines, so it is possible they may exist. I saw one about 40 years ago but did not get a chance to examine the chamber to see if it was an original DWM stepped chamber. Will you get a chance to examine the carbine again? I would really be interested to know if it is an authentic 9mm 1902 Carbine and the serial number. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-19-2019, 05:45 PM	#4
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	cal 1902 carbine Gentlemen. thank you for prompt reply. The vendor is at the Lakeland Show this wknd. I will visit or call on Mon. and secure Sn. and chamber markings. Mike

01-28-2019, 06:35 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Click on the link to a previous thread that Dwight has provided and look at the second post...it should pretty much tell you what the step is for and what to look for in the chamber. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-21-2019, 12:10 PM	#8
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	Gentlemen, the more I read about the early Lugers, the more I come to realize that I know nothing. Im going to meet the seller for an in depth examination. Will report later. Mike

01-26-2019, 01:50 PM	#9
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	Sirs, thanks for patience. Carbine is in the 22K-24K serial number range. I have found a few 30cal. carbines for sale in this range of numbers. I have not found any 9mm to compare. Im afraid the seller is into it a little on the heavy side, so Im backing out for right now. Mike

01-26-2019, 02:29 PM	#10
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	It would be interesting to know what the seller wants for it. Is it a 9mm? Curl

01-26-2019, 06:59 PM	#11
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	Hello Curt, yes 9mm. Asking $20,000. A little steep for me. I can not find a 9mm to verify its heritage. Is Charles Kenyon,Jr. still with us? Mike

01-27-2019, 03:26 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	A real 9mm carbine in the proper serial range would be worth the money. Any word on the chamber step? --Dwight

01-28-2019, 01:06 PM	#13
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	Hello Dwight, Im out of my league here with carbines. What is a chamber step and what does its presence signify? Any pics available? Mike

01-29-2019, 11:32 AM	#16
gmborkovic User Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 2 Posts	Sirs, thank you for the clarification on the step. Have seen them before. Should the barrel be numbered to the rec.? Mike