LugerForum Discussion Forums my profile | register | faq | search
upload photo | donate | calendar

Go Back   LugerForum Discussion Forums > Luger Discussion Forums > All P-08 Military Lugers

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 07-13-2010, 11:45 AM   #21
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,014
Thanks: 1,014
Thanked 3,808 Times in 1,170 Posts
Default

Marc,

Your grandfather was probably closer to the german techniques than you may realize:

The basis for German norm-based engineering and production was laid by Ludwig Loewe in the late 1880s. He had a Sewing Machine factory in Berlin and went to the USA to study the American mass production techniques that came into being around the civil war.

Armed with his knowledge of American mass production techniques, coupled with his own ideas on enforcing quality control he returned to Berlin and started changing his company production methods. Loewe's norm approach was the basis of the German DIN norm, and it also laid the foundations of the mass production of complex engineering designs in Germany, of which the Luger pistol is still a very good example. Loewe quickly found that there was more money in arms than in sewing machines. Sadly for Ludwig Loewe is that he died relatively young. His brother Isidor Loewe would turn the company into a larger conglomorate.

Loewe stood a the cradle of DWM and owned DWM until 1928. The Loewe company was forced to merger with AEG in the late 1930s, but regained it's independance after the war. It celebrated it's 100th anniversary in 1969 and lives on as part of DIAG to this day.
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Vlim for your post:
Unread 07-14-2010, 07:05 AM   #22
123
User
 
123's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Just an observation,

But the Eurfurt appears to have no machine marks, looks like untouched casting, is this normal? is this just my eyes???
123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2010, 07:31 AM   #23
123
User
 
123's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Sorry, I ment untouched forging.
123 is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to 123 for your post:
Unread 07-14-2010, 08:34 AM   #24
Vlim
Moderator
Lifetime
LugerForum Patron
 
Vlim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,014
Thanks: 1,014
Thanked 3,808 Times in 1,170 Posts
Default

I noticed this as well, and I was thinking that perhaps they sandblasted the interior in order to smooth out the milling marks.
Vlim is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2010, 10:36 AM   #25
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

The Erfurt is so smooth and square, and the end of the area is so abrupt, I though they must have used some kind of shaving or plow tool. My Erfurt was refinished at some very early point, probably when it was reworked as a police gun (It's marked to the Magdeberg district).

The Simson shows vertical marks in this area.

Marc
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-14-2010, 02:09 PM   #26
Norme
Always A
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
Norme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 2,414
Thanks: 223
Thanked 2,590 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Hi Marc, As my contribution to this research, here is a photo of a 1937 Krieghoff. Regards, Norm
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_1863.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	106.2 KB
ID:	13963  

Norme is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to Norme for your post:
Unread 07-14-2010, 03:31 PM   #27
tau-delt
User
 
tau-delt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Ohio
Posts: 105
Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Default

Later in Mauser production..... 42 BYF 7837g. Note mark in the middle somewhat different from the 1940 42 code but apparently stamped there for some reason.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC01362.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	36.2 KB
ID:	13964  

__________________
dave
tau-delt is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to tau-delt for your post:
Unread 07-21-2010, 10:26 PM   #28
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

Norm and Dave, Thank you for your contributions.

This area, normally not externally visible, appears to be telling more about the workflow and process focus than other areas of our Lugers.

It looks rougher and done more quickly when there was probably more pressure on productivity in the factories.

Expedient as always, as long as the strength of the frame and adequate clearance was milled, the inspectors probably focused less on appearances here.

Marc
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-22-2010, 12:22 AM   #29
wlyon
Lifer 2X
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
wlyon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Somewhere in Montana
Posts: 2,614
Thanks: 3,134
Thanked 2,516 Times in 939 Posts
Default

There is an excellent write up and pictures of these differences in Randall Gibson's Krieghoff book. Bill
__________________
Bill Lyon
wlyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-22-2010, 12:44 AM   #30
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

I recently bought a copy of The Krieghoff Parabellum by Gibson. It is has a great series of comparison analysis discussions between manufacturers. These include photos of this frame area.

I hadn't seen it when I started this thread. I just noticed the differences and hoped the information was useful here...

Marc
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-23-2010, 01:12 PM   #31
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

Norm, Thanks for the Krieghoff picture! Looks like they broached the inside frame edges and rear before milling the center channel.

Here's a 1936 Mauser P-08 in the "i" block:



This is consistent with the process at the end of production in 1942. These look like the center channel was milled followed by the rear and side broaching.

Marc
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-27-2010, 12:16 AM   #32
wlyon
Lifer 2X
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
wlyon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Somewhere in Montana
Posts: 2,614
Thanks: 3,134
Thanked 2,516 Times in 939 Posts
Default

Marc
Didn't mean to negate any of your study with the Gibson reference. I'm sure a lot of the collectors do not have his book. Your pictures are better anyway. Thanks Bill
__________________
Bill Lyon
wlyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-27-2010, 12:46 PM   #33
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

Bill, no issue here... I'm just glad that I can contribute something useful!
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-27-2011, 06:30 PM   #34
sheepherder
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
sheepherder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal...
Posts: 8,180
Thanks: 1,394
Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts
Default

I read this thread some time back but didn't think I had anything to add...but I was looking at what I've always thought was my 'commercial' P08, particularly at the big relief area between the frame ears (which has no purpose), and I noticed that the cutter mark was odd...It looks like whoever ran the mill ran the cutter into the frame at the end of the cut...but the mark doesn't look like an end-cutting end mill...

(And although the receiver has the C/N, the frame serial is 6782/n)...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P08_relief.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	68.9 KB
ID:	17033  

__________________
I like my coffee the
way I like my women...
...Cold and bitter...
sheepherder is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-23-2011, 04:50 PM   #35
Mk VII
User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: England
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Tinker View Post
I had heard this also, and would love to see these documents...
See the article on the Vickers Luger by Dr. S.C. Sambrook in Vol.4 No.1 of the Journal of the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association which discusses the new evidence from the Vickers Board of Directors' meeting Minute book, presently held at Cambridge University Library, Department of Manuscripts and University Archives, ref. GB 012 MS.Vickers

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb012ms.vickers
Mk VII is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-22-2011, 07:10 PM   #36
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default Rear Frame of 1906/24 Swiss

This is the rear frame machining on my 1906/24 Swiss Luger manufactured by Waffenfabrik Bern in 1923...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	RearFrame.jpg
Views:	90
Size:	118.6 KB
ID:	23160  

__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum -
- Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #37
Ed Mc
User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Macon, GA
Posts: 10
Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

In reading this thread I noticed a reference to the Mauser production of the late sixties/early seventies. Perhaps you have seen the following linked article, perhaps not. I found it of some interest.

Scroll down the page to 'The Parabellum Story' and click on the page to download the article in PDF format.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/earl...loading-pistol

Last edited by Ed Mc; 01-18-2012 at 09:34 AM. Reason: error correction
Ed Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 07-29-2012, 12:46 PM   #38
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default Mauser Interarms Luger 10.002185

Here's the milled rear receiver area of Interarms Mauser 06/29 Luger sn 10.002185. It's a .30 Luger (7.65) caliber pistol. Made in 1971.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ReceiverRearMachining_10.002185.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	137.9 KB
ID:	27863  

__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum -
- Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
The following member says Thank You to mrerick for your post:
Unread 08-26-2012, 10:29 AM   #39
mrerick
Super Moderator - Patron
LugerForum
Life Patron
 
mrerick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA
Posts: 3,900
Thanks: 1,370
Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts
Default

A recently posted forum discussion included this picture of a M1900 American Eagle s/n 8372 frame rear area:



Marc
__________________
Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum -
- Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.
mrerick is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 08-26-2012, 10:55 AM   #40
sheepherder
Lifer
Lifetime Forum
Patron
 
sheepherder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal...
Posts: 8,180
Thanks: 1,394
Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mk VII View Post
See the article on the Vickers Luger by Dr. S.C. Sambrook in Vol.4 No.1 of the Journal of the Historical Breechloading Smallarms Association which discusses the new evidence from the Vickers Board of Directors' meeting Minute book, presently held at Cambridge University Library, Department of Manuscripts and University Archives, ref. GB 012 MS.Vickers

http://archiveshub.ac.uk/data/gb012ms.vickers
That particular manuscript doesn't appear to be accessible online, only in person...

It may be that there are digital copies available for the archives that you are intersted in, but that they are not displayed on or linked to from the Hub. You would need to contact the holding repository to find out more. Click on the link to 'Contact the repository' from the top of the description.

Would you have a digital copy of this document???
__________________
I like my coffee the
way I like my women...
...Cold and bitter...
sheepherder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dwm, erfurt, mauser, simson

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2023, Lugerforum.com