Rare HK...?

Pete Ebbink · 06-06-2004, 12:07 PM

...with the grip safety and side inscribed...?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=19228973

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 06-06-2004, 12:36 PM

Pete,

Pull out your copy of Gibson and compare with the photos on page 118.

I'm not a Krieghoff expert by any means, but to my eye there are enough differences--including inconsistencies within the inscription on the gun itself (note the differences in the three 'f's in Waffenfabrik)--that I would not be induced to pay as much as $5k for this gun.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 06-06-2004, 12:51 PM

Hi Dwight,

The shape of the top of the "S" in Suhl struck me a bit odd, as well...

But this inscprition is better than the photos of the suprious ones Gibson shows on page 118...

How often have grip-safetied HK's surfaced...?

p.s. Is it common to have both a vertical C/N and a lazy C/N on the same 1920's era pistol...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

drbuster · 06-10-2004, 12:22 AM

Although the fonts (f,g and h) appear to be correct (Gibson,p. 118) on the side frame inscription, Mr. Gibson warns (page 117) for collectors to be especially wary of 1920 or 1923 DWM commercials with the side frame inscription. At a lofty price of $5K, one should be VERY wary!

Dwight Gruber · 06-10-2004, 01:17 AM

Pete,

Running into the thread again made me pull out my copy of Gibson and page through it. I ran into a couple of pertinent items.

On p. 140 Gibson specifically addresses side-frame inscribed DWM Commercial reworks. He notes that authentic inscriptions are stamped, and fakes are usually engraved. Frankly, the example you have linked to looks engraved to me, the letters lack the uniformity one expects from a stamped inscription.

Even more telling though, in the same section, he notes that there are so many fake sideframe stamped DWM Commercial reworks that, "...it is questionable whether legitimate examples even exist."

On p. 143 Gibson directly addresses the vertical/lazy c/N issue. He illustrates a gun with a vertical c/N on the receiver, and another with a lazy receiver c/N and a lazy c/N frame rail stamp directly below it. The caption states that, when the receivers are stamped in the DWM fashion, that is upright, there will be no frame stamp. When the receiver is stamped Krieghoff fashion, lazy c/N, it is accompanied by a lazy c/N on the frame.

--Dwight

drbuster · 06-10-2004, 09:42 AM

Dwight, Thanks for supplying this additional data. I'm having trouble determining whether the inscription is engraved or stamped, it's really hard to tell. The upright C/N is smaller than the lazy C/N, which adds credence that the former was stamped by DWM. I e-mailed all this info to the seller,casting doubt that it's worth anything near $5K. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I haven't heard a reply. Still no bids last I looked and it ends soon.

Vlim · 06-10-2004, 10:22 AM

Hi,

Although I'm not a great fan of Kenyon's Lugers at Random, it has a number of commercial Krieghoff variations in it. Some things are noteworthy:

-Early 1920s DWM versions with a side-frame inscription have a standing straight lettering.
-1930's commercials show the stamping and proofing as found on frame of the example pictured.
-All were P08 versions with stock-lugs.

I believe this one was modelled after a commercial Krieghoff of the wrong timeframe (1930s), using a correct serial numbered commercial 1920 DWM.

Someone screwed up a very nice 1920's 1906-pattern commerial in order to create this thing, IMHO.

Alternatively:
In 1920, DWM decided to produce one 1906-pattern luger for Krieghoff, which had a lettering that was different to all the others they had produced and they decided to use the lettering that Krieghoff themselves would use 15 years later.

Or: Krieghoff decided in 1935 to create a single, 1906-pattern luger with a DWM toggle and have it stamped with a DWM proof, while proofing the frame with their own marking.

I believe you get the picture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Navy · 06-10-2004, 12:27 PM

Gents,
If one has to explain abnormalities of such a fundamental nature, it would seem that the "bigger fool" of collecting is alive and well.

Tom A.

Pete Ebbink · 06-10-2004, 01:21 PM

Tom,

Let's not forget that there are all levels of collecting experience and "expertness" participating on the Luger Forum...some of the fundamentals (you may take for granted) may not have been learned by some of our Membership...

Those tables full of refinished lugers being sold as 'original' at the big gun shows demonstrates a market for such "not right" lugers...the guns are there show after show because they do get sold to some folks. Hopefully as the "beginners" (myself included...) learn more on this Forum as well as on Jan's forum amd through AutoMag, a few more folks will just walk by those tables...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

drbuster · 06-10-2004, 03:06 PM

In that line of thinking, one must presume, after reading Gibson's book, pages 118 and 144, that the DWM "Krieghoff" with the wrong font "g" pictured on page 313 of Kenyon's Lugers at Random (and from Ralph Shattuck's collection)is an aftermarket and not Krieghoff rework "original"? Perhaps one of us can notify Mr. Kenyon to respond in a future Gun Report article about this matter.

Navy · 06-10-2004, 03:57 PM

pete,

I meant no offense to anyone. But it should be axiomatic to anyone who is the least bit serious about Luger collecting that having to "alabi" serious irregularities is not exercising discerning judgment.

Tuition at Luger U. can be *very* expensive when one is too slow to walk away from a questionable piece. A probationary member of the Navy Cabal phrased it well: "I buy Lugers; no body sells me one."

Seems like a pretty good way to play this poker game.

Tom A.

drbuster · 06-10-2004, 04:59 PM

I showed Mike Krause the images of this luger on Gunbroker. His response was in effect that he wouldn't buy it at $5K or at "any K"!

Pete Ebbink · 06-10-2004, 10:11 PM

Hello Doc,

I do not have C. Kenyon's email, but do have his home phone number.

When I am home on Friday night, I will email you the number and volunteer you to call...when you chat with him, ask when his 3rd. book might hit the streets...

LAR came out in late 1960's and re-issued in the early 1990's...not sure if any attempt was made to update/correct the original LAR at the last printing...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 06-11-2004, 01:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
LAR came out in late 1960's and re-issued in the early 1990's...not sure if any attempt was made to update/correct the original LAR at the last printing...<hr /></blockquote>Pete,

The book was recreated, adequate-to-marginal photo reproduction quality and all. The only thing they did differently was to move the binding to the long edge, making the book difficult to handle.

Notwithstanding, the book retains every iota of its useful information.

--Dwight

John D. · 06-14-2004, 08:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pete Ebbink:
...with the grip safety and side inscribed...?

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=19228973

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>HI Pete,

Sorry for the delayed reply - but I've been bouncing between US travel for family reasons and Europe late last week - and finally landed/home tonite..... I was home a few days, in the past weeks - but, to be honest - I can't remember when - about the time Thor shipped me a package? (THanks again Thor!!!!)

While I'm late to this thread - I'm glad to see that this "HK" (notice the quotes??!) didn't sell. It would make a nifty shooter - but for the collector, or the HK folks - not worth $5k. I'd give it about a $750 value - IMHO. It's a wonderful incorrectly sideframe inscribed - DWM..

Best to ya!

John

John Sabato · 06-15-2004, 10:12 AM

Hi John D.! I can always tell when you are gone for a while... That's when I find entries in the new registration queue

When you are around, you always seem to beat me there!

Anyway...welcome back. Glad you had safe travel.

Pete Ebbink · 06-16-2004, 12:36 PM

Hi John D.,

Thanks for the comments...I am glad some of the Member's were able to come to the same conclusions about this piece in your absence...

Is it safe to say that no HK should have a grip safety, ever...???

Hi Dwight,

The "story" I heard was that C. Kenyon got lots of requests from gun show folks about rotating the book's orientation at the reprinting...to help folks use the book on gun shop counters to not take so much counter space when reading the book and examining a luger...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-06-2004, 12:07 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Rare HK...? ...with the grip safety and side inscribed...? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=19228973 Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-11-2004, 01:18 AM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>LAR came out in late 1960's and re-issued in the early 1990's...not sure if any attempt was made to update/correct the original LAR at the last printing...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Pete, The book was recreated, adequate-to-marginal photo reproduction quality and all. The only thing they did differently was to move the binding to the long edge, making the book difficult to handle. Notwithstanding, the book retains every iota of its useful information. --Dwight

06-14-2004, 08:10 PM	#15
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Pete Ebbink: <strong>...with the grip safety and side inscribed...? http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=19228973 Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">HI Pete, Sorry for the delayed reply - but I've been bouncing between US travel for family reasons and Europe late last week - and finally landed/home tonite..... I was home a few days, in the past weeks - but, to be honest - I can't remember when - about the time Thor shipped me a package? (THanks again Thor!!!!) While I'm late to this thread - I'm glad to see that this "HK" (notice the quotes??!) didn't sell. It would make a nifty shooter - but for the collector, or the HK folks - not worth $5k. I'd give it about a $750 value - IMHO. It's a wonderful incorrectly sideframe inscribed - DWM.. Best to ya! John

06-15-2004, 10:12 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hi John D.! I can always tell when you are gone for a while... That's when I find entries in the new registration queue When you are around, you always seem to beat me there! Anyway...welcome back. Glad you had safe travel. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

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06-06-2004, 12:36 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Pete, Pull out your copy of Gibson and compare with the photos on page 118. I'm not a Krieghoff expert by any means, but to my eye there are enough differences--including inconsistencies within the inscription on the gun itself (note the differences in the three 'f's in Waffenfabrik)--that I would not be induced to pay as much as $5k for this gun. --Dwight

06-06-2004, 12:51 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Dwight, The shape of the top of the "S" in Suhl struck me a bit odd, as well... But this inscprition is better than the photos of the suprious ones Gibson shows on page 118... How often have grip-safetied HK's surfaced...? p.s. Is it common to have both a vertical C/N and a lazy C/N on the same 1920's era pistol...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-10-2004, 12:22 AM	#4
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Although the fonts (f,g and h) appear to be correct (Gibson,p. 118) on the side frame inscription, Mr. Gibson warns (page 117) for collectors to be especially wary of 1920 or 1923 DWM commercials with the side frame inscription. At a lofty price of $5K, one should be VERY wary!

06-10-2004, 01:17 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Pete, Running into the thread again made me pull out my copy of Gibson and page through it. I ran into a couple of pertinent items. On p. 140 Gibson specifically addresses side-frame inscribed DWM Commercial reworks. He notes that authentic inscriptions are stamped, and fakes are usually engraved. Frankly, the example you have linked to looks engraved to me, the letters lack the uniformity one expects from a stamped inscription. Even more telling though, in the same section, he notes that there are so many fake sideframe stamped DWM Commercial reworks that, "...it is questionable whether legitimate examples even exist." On p. 143 Gibson directly addresses the vertical/lazy c/N issue. He illustrates a gun with a vertical c/N on the receiver, and another with a lazy receiver c/N and a lazy c/N frame rail stamp directly below it. The caption states that, when the receivers are stamped in the DWM fashion, that is upright, there will be no frame stamp. When the receiver is stamped Krieghoff fashion, lazy c/N, it is accompanied by a lazy c/N on the frame. --Dwight

06-10-2004, 09:42 AM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Dwight, Thanks for supplying this additional data. I'm having trouble determining whether the inscription is engraved or stamped, it's really hard to tell. The upright C/N is smaller than the lazy C/N, which adds credence that the former was stamped by DWM. I e-mailed all this info to the seller,casting doubt that it's worth anything near $5K. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I haven't heard a reply. Still no bids last I looked and it ends soon.

06-10-2004, 10:22 AM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,030 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,860 Times in 1,183 Posts	Hi, Although I'm not a great fan of Kenyon's Lugers at Random, it has a number of commercial Krieghoff variations in it. Some things are noteworthy: -Early 1920s DWM versions with a side-frame inscription have a standing straight lettering. -1930's commercials show the stamping and proofing as found on frame of the example pictured. -All were P08 versions with stock-lugs. I believe this one was modelled after a commercial Krieghoff of the wrong timeframe (1930s), using a correct serial numbered commercial 1920 DWM. Someone screwed up a very nice 1920's 1906-pattern commerial in order to create this thing, IMHO. Alternatively: In 1920, DWM decided to produce one 1906-pattern luger for Krieghoff, which had a lettering that was different to all the others they had produced and they decided to use the lettering that Krieghoff themselves would use 15 years later. Or: Krieghoff decided in 1935 to create a single, 1906-pattern luger with a DWM toggle and have it stamped with a DWM proof, while proofing the frame with their own marking. I believe you get the picture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

06-10-2004, 12:27 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Gents, If one has to explain abnormalities of such a fundamental nature, it would seem that the "bigger fool" of collecting is alive and well. Tom A.

06-10-2004, 01:21 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Tom, Let's not forget that there are all levels of collecting experience and "expertness" participating on the Luger Forum...some of the fundamentals (you may take for granted) may not have been learned by some of our Membership... Those tables full of refinished lugers being sold as 'original' at the big gun shows demonstrates a market for such "not right" lugers...the guns are there show after show because they do get sold to some folks. Hopefully as the "beginners" (myself included...) learn more on this Forum as well as on Jan's forum amd through AutoMag, a few more folks will just walk by those tables... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-10-2004, 03:06 PM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	In that line of thinking, one must presume, after reading Gibson's book, pages 118 and 144, that the DWM "Krieghoff" with the wrong font "g" pictured on page 313 of Kenyon's Lugers at Random (and from Ralph Shattuck's collection)is an aftermarket and not Krieghoff rework "original"? Perhaps one of us can notify Mr. Kenyon to respond in a future Gun Report article about this matter.

06-10-2004, 03:57 PM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	pete, I meant no offense to anyone. But it should be axiomatic to anyone who is the least bit serious about Luger collecting that having to "alabi" serious irregularities is not exercising discerning judgment. Tuition at Luger U. can be very expensive when one is too slow to walk away from a questionable piece. A probationary member of the Navy Cabal phrased it well: "I buy Lugers; no body sells me one." Seems like a pretty good way to play this poker game. Tom A.

06-10-2004, 04:59 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I showed Mike Krause the images of this luger on Gunbroker. His response was in effect that he wouldn't buy it at $5K or at "any K"!

06-10-2004, 10:11 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Doc, I do not have C. Kenyon's email, but do have his home phone number. When I am home on Friday night, I will email you the number and volunteer you to call...when you chat with him, ask when his 3rd. book might hit the streets... LAR came out in late 1960's and re-issued in the early 1990's...not sure if any attempt was made to update/correct the original LAR at the last printing... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-16-2004, 12:36 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi John D., Thanks for the comments...I am glad some of the Member's were able to come to the same conclusions about this piece in your absence... Is it safe to say that no HK should have a grip safety, ever...??? Hi Dwight, The "story" I heard was that C. Kenyon got lots of requests from gun show folks about rotating the book's orientation at the reprinting...to help folks use the book on gun shop counters to not take so much counter space when reading the book and examining a luger... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />