Question on original finish

PACKET · 06-07-2003, 03:24 PM

Gentlemen, for your inspection, one 1917 DWM artillery. All matching including the mag. What can you tell me about the finnish? To me it looks like patina on the reciever, the barrel looks much better but is original. There is no blue inside and all markings and edges are sharp. I am new at this so I need your expertise.

Sgt Art · 06-07-2003, 05:12 PM

That Luger's finish is rust blue and the interior should not be blued as the chemicals used in the rust bluing process are applied on the exterior only. It's a fairly slow process that gives a deep bluish-black finish. The hot salts type finish requires the entire gun be dipped and therefore the interior is blued. All bluing eventually wears off as in the case of the gun you have pictured and a patina or discoloration appears. Patina is rust. The trigger and some of the other smaller parts should be straw colored. This is done by heating the metal. They, too, have a patina of rust on them. IMO, your gun would be a prime candidate for restoration. I don't believe it would hurt it's value to have it rust blued and returned to it's original state. Perhaps someone else would not agree with me, but if you want it to look nicer, that would be the way.

Dwight Gruber · 06-07-2003, 05:19 PM

The photographs you present arouse my suspicions.

Three things make me immediatly think this gun may not wear its original finish. 1: There is very little wear on the side plate island; 2: The trigger and locking bolt appear to have the same "brown" finish as the rest of the gun; and 3: the flat, unworn surfaces are excessively mottled.

This is my immediate reaction, based on the pictures presented. More detailed pictures would be helpful.

What is the wear at the muzzle like? Are the strawed small parts really "browned", or is this an effect of the photographs? What color is the extractor and ejector? What does the inside actually look like?

--Dwight

wterrell · 06-07-2003, 06:31 PM

Digital cameras will cast a hue of the predominate color over the entire pic , in this case red. If the background were royal blue, the effect would be quite different.
Based on these three pics, by adjusting hue, gamma, and brightness, etc., it would appear that this pistol has been covered with browning acid and steamed. A blue background may give results that would compel a different conclusion.

PACKET · 06-07-2003, 07:45 PM

The camera makes this look worse than it actually is. I have it in my hands right now and there is very little red cast. It looks just like patina to me. Good catch on the take down lever as it is not the original, it is being repaired. I believe it has possibly been touched up with cold blue at one time. The safety lever is blue, doesnt look like it was ever strawed, but it is numbered to the gun. Im just nt good enough to tell for sure.

Stu · 06-07-2003, 08:21 PM

Nice looking gun, wish I had it ! The safety lever would have been strawed when new, (as well as the trigger, mag release and take down lever).

George Anderson · 06-07-2003, 09:02 PM

Looks original to me. If, as you state, the take-down doesn't match I'd pack it off to Thor for restoration then shoot the hell out of it.

sverre · 06-07-2003, 09:40 PM

looks like its covered with blood on the pictures <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" />

Sverre.

wterrell · 06-07-2003, 10:05 PM

Naw, that is where the acid pooled. I've seen quite a few examples of that on homemade Pennsylvania longrifles, before the maker learned his craft.

Hugh · 06-08-2003, 11:58 AM

Does it have a "cold blue" smell? looks like an old attempt at cold bluing to me.

Navy · 06-08-2003, 10:40 PM

That gun has been cooked with some chemical application; I doubt if that is the *only* thing that has been done. Reminds me of starting a housefire to cover a murder, but then I am skeptical.
Tom A.

Barry Briscoe · 06-09-2003, 12:23 AM

Packet,
You might carefully take the grips off to check the finish under them.Be careful with the left grip when removing to avoid chipping it near the safety lever.

I assume that the springs are in good working order,of course someone may have replaced the springs and grips.If the springs have lost their resiliency,the gun may have been in a fire.

PACKET · 06-09-2003, 05:29 PM

The grips are original and the finnish looks normal underneath. Springs are good. I see no indication of fire, or excessive heat. There is no bluing inside the reciever or frame. I just dont know what to think. I do appreciate all the replies.

John Sabato · 06-09-2003, 05:37 PM

I agree that the gun should be packed off to Thor for righteous restoration of it's original finish... It is is sad shape and the history is not really known. The lack of a matching takedown lever makes it the perfect candidate. If it were mine, it would already be in the box and I would be addressing the FEDEX label...

While you are at it... pack the grips off to Hugh Clark for his magic as well.

A guy can dream can't he?

PACKET · 06-09-2003, 06:10 PM

John, I had thought of sending it to Thor, but I didnt want to ruin any collector value. I do have the original take down lever, but it is dammaged. It could propably be repaired by the right person. From what I have learned so far, it sounds like this is indeed a good candidate for restoration, and I would love to shoot the hell out of it. Thanks again all for the advise.

Navy · 06-09-2003, 09:41 PM

Packet,
I did not mean to suggest that your pistol had been in a fire; I was alluding to the criminal practice of using a massive conflagration to cover up a number of lesser or greater crimes.
Your gun, IMHO, has been chemically cooked. Assuming all the original parts are present, (And I would be very skeptical on that) it may be a good candidate for restoration. Having said that, I must ask why one would spend the time and money to do so. There are lots of Artys out there at fairly reasonable prices if you want a collector piece; if that is not your wish, use the one you have for a shooter and enjoy it.
Tom A.

PACKET · 06-09-2003, 10:26 PM

Tom, I am quite certain that all parts are matched and original. When you refer to "chemically cooked" what exactly do you mean? I can see that one might reblue the gun if the original finnish were all but gone. Do you think someone tried to rust blue it and botched the job? I have seen bad cold/hot bluing, but this doesnt look like it. As for shooting this one and finding another collectible, I have to agree with you. While Thor's work is splendid, it is expensive. Thanks again for the advise.

Navy · 06-09-2003, 11:04 PM

By chemically cooked, I mean that someone has applied one of the "patina restoration" solutions to the surface of the gun. These compounds, usually (and I am no chemist) are a dilute mix of an acid and some mineral compounds for buffering and color, and when applied lightly and removed quickly from a re-blued gun will give it just the "right" look to the uninitiated. It also frustrates the "Semichrome" test as there is iron oxide present.

The key to spotting these boosted pieces is that the discoloration and "patina" appear more like case hardening and the surface steel has microscopic etching. Actually, it is pretty crude and easy to spot in person...it just don't look right.

Tom A.

Thor · 06-10-2003, 08:01 AM

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger-Click HERE

John Sabato · 06-10-2003, 12:08 PM

Why would one restore this Luger? All you have to do is look at the photo that Thor just posted a link for to have a good enough reason... Another Luger that will transcend this generation to a new generation of Luger appreciators...

You can certainly use your limited resources (mine are limited too) toward Collecting another "unshootable" but collectable Artillery Luger if you like... but as expensive as fine work like Thor's restoration magic is, it is not as expensive as buying a "collectable" Artillery Luger that doesn't need refinishing and that you can't shoot.

Just my

06-07-2003, 03:24 PM	#1
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Question on original finish Gentlemen, for your inspection, one 1917 DWM artillery. All matching including the mag. What can you tell me about the finnish? To me it looks like patina on the reciever, the barrel looks much better but is original. There is no blue inside and all markings and edges are sharp. I am new at this so I need your expertise.

06-07-2003, 06:31 PM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Digital cameras will cast a hue of the predominate color over the entire pic , in this case red. If the background were royal blue, the effect would be quite different. Based on these three pics, by adjusting hue, gamma, and brightness, etc., it would appear that this pistol has been covered with browning acid and steamed. A blue background may give results that would compel a different conclusion. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-07-2003, 10:05 PM	#9
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Naw, that is where the acid pooled. I've seen quite a few examples of that on homemade Pennsylvania longrifles, before the maker learned his craft. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

06-08-2003, 11:58 AM	#10
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Does it have a "cold blue" smell? looks like an old attempt at cold bluing to me. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-09-2003, 05:37 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I agree that the gun should be packed off to Thor for righteous restoration of it's original finish... It is is sad shape and the history is not really known. The lack of a matching takedown lever makes it the perfect candidate. If it were mine, it would already be in the box and I would be addressing the FEDEX label... While you are at it... pack the grips off to Hugh Clark for his magic as well. A guy can dream can't he? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-07-2003, 05:12 PM	#2
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	That Luger's finish is rust blue and the interior should not be blued as the chemicals used in the rust bluing process are applied on the exterior only. It's a fairly slow process that gives a deep bluish-black finish. The hot salts type finish requires the entire gun be dipped and therefore the interior is blued. All bluing eventually wears off as in the case of the gun you have pictured and a patina or discoloration appears. Patina is rust. The trigger and some of the other smaller parts should be straw colored. This is done by heating the metal. They, too, have a patina of rust on them. IMO, your gun would be a prime candidate for restoration. I don't believe it would hurt it's value to have it rust blued and returned to it's original state. Perhaps someone else would not agree with me, but if you want it to look nicer, that would be the way.

06-07-2003, 05:19 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	The photographs you present arouse my suspicions. Three things make me immediatly think this gun may not wear its original finish. 1: There is very little wear on the side plate island; 2: The trigger and locking bolt appear to have the same "brown" finish as the rest of the gun; and 3: the flat, unworn surfaces are excessively mottled. This is my immediate reaction, based on the pictures presented. More detailed pictures would be helpful. What is the wear at the muzzle like? Are the strawed small parts really "browned", or is this an effect of the photographs? What color is the extractor and ejector? What does the inside actually look like? --Dwight

06-07-2003, 07:45 PM	#5
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The camera makes this look worse than it actually is. I have it in my hands right now and there is very little red cast. It looks just like patina to me. Good catch on the take down lever as it is not the original, it is being repaired. I believe it has possibly been touched up with cold blue at one time. The safety lever is blue, doesnt look like it was ever strawed, but it is numbered to the gun. Im just nt good enough to tell for sure.

06-07-2003, 08:21 PM	#6
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Nice looking gun, wish I had it ! The safety lever would have been strawed when new, (as well as the trigger, mag release and take down lever).

06-07-2003, 09:02 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Looks original to me. If, as you state, the take-down doesn't match I'd pack it off to Thor for restoration then shoot the hell out of it.

06-07-2003, 09:40 PM	#8
sverre User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	looks like its covered with blood on the pictures <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> Sverre.

06-08-2003, 10:40 PM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	That gun has been cooked with some chemical application; I doubt if that is the only thing that has been done. Reminds me of starting a housefire to cover a murder, but then I am skeptical. Tom A.

06-09-2003, 12:23 AM	#12
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Packet, You might carefully take the grips off to check the finish under them.Be careful with the left grip when removing to avoid chipping it near the safety lever. I assume that the springs are in good working order,of course someone may have replaced the springs and grips.If the springs have lost their resiliency,the gun may have been in a fire.

06-09-2003, 05:29 PM	#13
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The grips are original and the finnish looks normal underneath. Springs are good. I see no indication of fire, or excessive heat. There is no bluing inside the reciever or frame. I just dont know what to think. I do appreciate all the replies.

06-09-2003, 06:10 PM	#15
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, I had thought of sending it to Thor, but I didnt want to ruin any collector value. I do have the original take down lever, but it is dammaged. It could propably be repaired by the right person. From what I have learned so far, it sounds like this is indeed a good candidate for restoration, and I would love to shoot the hell out of it. Thanks again all for the advise.

06-09-2003, 09:41 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Packet, I did not mean to suggest that your pistol had been in a fire; I was alluding to the criminal practice of using a massive conflagration to cover up a number of lesser or greater crimes. Your gun, IMHO, has been chemically cooked. Assuming all the original parts are present, (And I would be very skeptical on that) it may be a good candidate for restoration. Having said that, I must ask why one would spend the time and money to do so. There are lots of Artys out there at fairly reasonable prices if you want a collector piece; if that is not your wish, use the one you have for a shooter and enjoy it. Tom A.

06-09-2003, 10:26 PM	#17
PACKET User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: FL. Posts: 68 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom, I am quite certain that all parts are matched and original. When you refer to "chemically cooked" what exactly do you mean? I can see that one might reblue the gun if the original finnish were all but gone. Do you think someone tried to rust blue it and botched the job? I have seen bad cold/hot bluing, but this doesnt look like it. As for shooting this one and finding another collectible, I have to agree with you. While Thor's work is splendid, it is expensive. Thanks again for the advise.

06-09-2003, 11:04 PM	#18
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	By chemically cooked, I mean that someone has applied one of the "patina restoration" solutions to the surface of the gun. These compounds, usually (and I am no chemist) are a dilute mix of an acid and some mineral compounds for buffering and color, and when applied lightly and removed quickly from a re-blued gun will give it just the "right" look to the uninitiated. It also frustrates the "Semichrome" test as there is iron oxide present. The key to spotting these boosted pieces is that the discoloration and "patina" appear more like case hardening and the surface steel has microscopic etching. Actually, it is pretty crude and easy to spot in person...it just don't look right. Tom A.

06-10-2003, 08:01 AM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger-Click HERE __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-10-2003, 12:08 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Why would one restore this Luger? All you have to do is look at the photo that Thor just posted a link for to have a good enough reason... Another Luger that will transcend this generation to a new generation of Luger appreciators... You can certainly use your limited resources (mine are limited too) toward Collecting another "unshootable" but collectable Artillery Luger if you like... but as expensive as fine work like Thor's restoration magic is, it is not as expensive as buying a "collectable" Artillery Luger that doesn't need refinishing and that you can't shoot. Just my __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*