Restoration worth the price?

Parabellus · 05-04-2006, 02:08 AM

Hello again everyone,

Can you till me if this is likely to be worth $1500?

A 'partial restoration' of a DMW 1917 LP-08, fresh rust-blue, good bore, good sight with all the teeth, all matching except grips and the contemporary magazine (wood bottom), no stock, no holster.

I really like this piece; it looks and feels good.

I appreciate any input.

Thank you,

Russell

Ron Wood · 05-04-2006, 02:26 AM

No pictures, no opinion. Is it likely to be worth $1500...probably not, but how in the world could we tell?

pipeman45 · 05-04-2006, 08:42 AM

Probably not that much. But if it sings to you, why not? You can always make more money! Only you know what it's worth to you.

Lugerdoc · 05-04-2006, 09:16 AM

Russell, Just to give your an idea what a nicely finished ersatz LPO8 would cost to buildup today, using Sarco's repro barrel & rear sight assy @$225 each, plus barrel installation with head spacing and chamber ream @$100. You would probably also need an orig LPO8 rear toggle link & spring for the rear sight @$50+. Finallly, either a dip blue @$100 or so, or a Thor rust blue @$500 or so. When you add in a shooter luger to use @$500+, you can see that minimum, you're looking at about $1200 with no profit added. TH

Parabellus · 05-04-2006, 10:53 AM

Thanks for all the input.

Pictures would be nice if the dealer lets me photgraph it.

The 'probably not' is what I expected. When I find one with the original blue, straw, and grips I'll try to get pics. I'll also need about three or four

I have yet to hear the Arty's song. I've been told it will crack like a rifle as it makes full use of the powder charge....?

The breakdown of likely costs is extremely helpful.

Thank you again my friends,

Russell

lugerholsterrepair · 05-04-2006, 11:54 AM

Russell, Jack Hiles and I have shot Artillery's and Navy stocked Lugers extensively in the AZ desert lately. They easily are accurate to 300 yards if you are any kind of shot. I say accurate if you would not want to be on the recieving end behind a rock. You could get got! They are an amazing and fun weapon to play with, I highly recommend you find one if you are a shooter. Pretty amazing for the small 9MM round. Jerry Burney

Parabellus · 05-04-2006, 01:32 PM

Jerry,

Sounds like a great place to retire!
See you out there in a few years.

Russell

hqbmw · 05-04-2006, 02:13 PM

I must say my Arty is definitely my favorite firearm in my arsenal. Like Jerry says, it is easily accurate to beyond 300 yards and puts a smile on your face with each hit. I take some criticism for firing a beautiful, numbers 1917 Artillery, but I would never let it sit in my safe when Jerry and I go out to shoot his favorite close target of golf balls nor our favorite looong target of the wild Arizona desert rock. I gotta say those golf balls are pesky little critters to hit but Mr Burney makes it look like child's play.

Jerry, how was the trip nack to high Colorado summer country? BTW you need to change your adress on your posts.

Russell, I escaped from the Bay Area 3 years ago and never look back!

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

lugerholsterrepair · 05-04-2006, 05:24 PM

Jack, Went well....Drove 800 miles day one, 300 day two. Couldn't find a motel that would take Magic or Belle!
Unloading and trying to get to work on the holster backlog.
Cold and winter here at 8000 feet, got a fire in the stove!

Russell, AZ is getting so expensive I wonder if many will be able to afford housing...Good luck!
Jerry Burney

Parabellus · 06-04-2006, 10:59 PM

Thank you Ron, Tac, Tom, David, Jerry, and Jack.

Your input helped me decide to go for it. The cool part is that I figure I got it at a discount of better than 8% as Mike Krause paid the sales tax. This is not his restoration work (that was done some time ago) but he did provide the new grips. It is matching except the grips and magazine. Haven't fired it yet; might get a chance next week.
I plan to get a repro stock next and then a holster. Understanding that this is not a stock-rigged type, what do you think of this one on e-bay?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EWA%3APIC&rd=1
Might have to send it off to Jerry before I could use it.

Anyhow, if this Arty sings the way I expect it to, I have dicided it will be worth the price. If not, just the tuition for a lesson at Luger U.

III.221.112.

Crown BNP on barrel and receiver

Here are my two Lugers and the non-matching magazines they came with:
1917 LP08 DWM and 1920 P08 DWM commercial/police
Would either likely be correct for either pistol? (aluminum vs wood bottom)

Russell

Ron Wood · 06-04-2006, 11:52 PM

Nice gun. You could have spent $1500 a lot less wisely. I retract my "probably not". You did well.

pipeman45 · 06-05-2006, 12:35 PM

You can almost always get more money. But how often do you get to hold a piece of history in your hand , and get to shoot it as well ?
I think you did alright!

Pete Ebbink · 06-05-2006, 12:46 PM

Russell,

For $ 1500...I think you did very well.

At my local gun shop in Walnut Creek, CA, you would pay over $ 1200 for a junky, doggy, mis-matched Arty shooter...usually with a broken TD lever spring to boot.

May I ask :

1. How is your bore condition ?

2. Could you post a photo of the bottom of the wooden magazine. It appears your magazine may be a Swiss Bern wooden luger...just would like to see the bottom to confirm this.

Congratulations on a great looking piece !

p.s. Regarding the e-Bay holster link. That same seller, LF member Randy Bessler, also has this very nice repro holster FS on his web site. You might look at this one as you could eventually get it set up with a woodend stock and straps, etc.

http://www.collectorfirearms.org/Lug...ems/LI-264.htm

Parabellus · 06-05-2006, 03:22 PM

Thank you Ron, David, and Pete,

Three thumbs up makes me feel really goodÃ¢?Â¦.as does holding this bit of history.

Now the questions begin. Some must seem quite basic but here goes.

How is barrel length measured? For the LP08 I get about 7 1/8 in. from the muzzle to the front of the receiver; about 7 7/8 in. to the breech. For the P08 I get just about 4 inches shorter. I would guess that official measurements are metric. When someone says he has a 7-inch Navy, a 6-inch American Eagle, or a 4-inch barrel; what is likely to be the true length?

There is no number on the rear toggle pin nor on the firing pin retainer. Should there be?

I would suppose that the ramp sight is graduated in hundreds of meters. If I find a way to hold it steady enough to accurately zero the sight is it advisable to invest in the adjusting tool and attempt it? Is there a standard range at which to zero?

Can anyone tell about the unit mark 'III.221.112.'?

If I can get clear pictures of the tiny markings on the barrel and receiver I will post, along with mag markings, which look similar in placement and character to the aluminum I have. From the Tech section I gather this Luger has standard DWM proofs 1914-1918 and British import/capture proofs as well.

Once again this forum and all of you are my primary resource for knowledge, information, guidance, and inspiration as I indulge my new passion.

Many thanks,

Russell

RockinWR · 06-05-2006, 11:34 PM

Russell,
* The barrel measurement is from the front of the breech face w/out the firing pin extended to the crown of the barrel. A pencil inserted eraser end first into an uncocked, unloaded P.08's barrel, scribed/marked @ the crown, retracted & measured is a good method of assessing the barrel's length. Of course, its going to take a "loooong pencil" to do an Arty. Your 7 & 7/8ths" = 7.875" is awfully close.

* P.08 = 100mm = 3.937". Called a 4" Bbl.
* LP.06 Navy = 150mm = 5.906". Called a 6" Bbl.
* LP.08 Arty = 200mm = 7.874". Called an 8" Bbl.

* The toggle pin was not S/numbered in the Imperial era. Wasn't till '33 that this pin began to be numbered. The F/Pin retainer was not S/numbered.

* Trust this helps.
Respectfully,
Bob

hqbmw · 06-06-2006, 01:38 PM

Russell,

Now just go out and have fun with it. I did the same thing as you. I bought my first Luger to get started and never dreamed I would own an Artillery. I kept my nose to the grindstone and it seemes like it took me no time to 1) get the Arty, 2)find a stock, and 3) find a holster.

Then, with the help of some beautiful pieces made by Jerry Burney, I have a nice rig I am proud to own and shoot. You'll have the same in no time.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ/Ex SF Bay

Pete Ebbink · 06-06-2006, 02:37 PM

Russell,

You might find the nice wooden grips a bit too delicate and they could become easily damaged at the range.

You might want to find a pair of the nice VOPO plastic grips and use them when you go out shooting. They are seeminly indestructible.

They pop up on e-Bay for $ 30 or so and I think our Luger Doc still sells them as well.

The Mike Krause shop might have some, as well.

Here is what they look like :

Parabellus · 06-06-2006, 11:11 PM

Thanks friends,

As I try to refine my photographic skill with a modest camera I got a few pics to show the magazine and proofs. I uploaded them but left the links on the office computer instead of my thumb drive. I'll get them posted early tomorrow. For now let me reference the 'Technical Information' section under 'Markings', 'Proof Marks', 'Proof 2' #15 for DWM 1914-1918 manufacture, and 'Proof 6' #60 as my source for the British markings. All are present on the underside of the barrel and I'm still trying to photograph that part. I have to figure out the lighting.

Tac, I would like nothing better than to think that this fine weapon was liberated from a German artillery officer by a British soldier.

Pete, the bore is very good. It must not have been fired in a long time. I took the gun down to clean out some old gum from the firing pin, ways, and toggle joints and oiled it up. Grip replacement sounds like a good idea. It looks like we are neighbors here in the East Bay.

Bob, your info is quite helpful. Thank you very much.

Jack, I plan to do pretty much what you say. What a great hobby this is! I can't wait to shoot it now, but I will because I live in town.

Russell

drbuster · 06-07-2006, 12:00 AM

I thoroughly examined this piece at Mike Krause's shop before Russell made his purchase. It is a very attractive luger and very well done. The unit markings on the front grip strap are not to be found in Jeff Noll's book and are probably Weimar. The British proofs are interesting. A very nice addition to a beginning collection and at a good price.

Pete Ebbink · 06-07-2006, 12:09 AM

Hi Russell,

I am over in the Easy Bay...I used to get over to the Krause shop and hang out with member Doc Fisher and chat lugers with Mike Krause...but work has keep me away of late.

You might also try to make the Reno gun show this August. Always a bunch of lugers (authentic and many not) but it is a show that one can learn a lot about lugers and several LF members always attend.

Sometimes a dinner event with fellow luger nuts gets organized.

Here is the gun show link :

http://www.bigrenoshow.com/

As far as shooting goes, is the Jackson Arms indoor range off the Hwy. 101 near Grande Ave. in So. SF still in business ? I had shot there 4-5 times and it is a decent indoor range.

05-04-2006, 02:26 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	No pictures, no opinion. Is it likely to be worth $1500...probably not, but how in the world could we tell? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-04-2006, 08:42 AM	#3
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Probably not that much. But if it sings to you, why not? You can always make more money! Only you know what it's worth to you. __________________ Dave

05-04-2006, 09:16 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Russell, Just to give your an idea what a nicely finished ersatz LPO8 would cost to buildup today, using Sarco's repro barrel & rear sight assy @$225 each, plus barrel installation with head spacing and chamber ream @$100. You would probably also need an orig LPO8 rear toggle link & spring for the rear sight @$50+. Finallly, either a dip blue @$100 or so, or a Thor rust blue @$500 or so. When you add in a shooter luger to use @$500+, you can see that minimum, you're looking at about $1200 with no profit added. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-04-2006, 10:53 AM	#5
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks for all the input. Pictures would be nice if the dealer lets me photgraph it. The 'probably not' is what I expected. When I find one with the original blue, straw, and grips I'll try to get pics. I'll also need about three or four I have yet to hear the Arty's song. I've been told it will crack like a rifle as it makes full use of the powder charge....? The breakdown of likely costs is extremely helpful. Thank you again my friends, Russell __________________

05-04-2006, 01:32 PM	#7
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Jerry, Sounds like a great place to retire! See you out there in a few years. Russell __________________

05-04-2006, 02:08 AM	#1
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Restoration worth the price? Hello again everyone, Can you till me if this is likely to be worth $1500? A 'partial restoration' of a DMW 1917 LP-08, fresh rust-blue, good bore, good sight with all the teeth, all matching except grips and the contemporary magazine (wood bottom), no stock, no holster. I really like this piece; it looks and feels good. I appreciate any input. Thank you, Russell

05-04-2006, 11:54 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Russell, Jack Hiles and I have shot Artillery's and Navy stocked Lugers extensively in the AZ desert lately. They easily are accurate to 300 yards if you are any kind of shot. I say accurate if you would not want to be on the recieving end behind a rock. You could get got! They are an amazing and fun weapon to play with, I highly recommend you find one if you are a shooter. Pretty amazing for the small 9MM round. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-04-2006, 02:13 PM	#8
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I must say my Arty is definitely my favorite firearm in my arsenal. Like Jerry says, it is easily accurate to beyond 300 yards and puts a smile on your face with each hit. I take some criticism for firing a beautiful, numbers 1917 Artillery, but I would never let it sit in my safe when Jerry and I go out to shoot his favorite close target of golf balls nor our favorite looong target of the wild Arizona desert rock. I gotta say those golf balls are pesky little critters to hit but Mr Burney makes it look like child's play. Jerry, how was the trip nack to high Colorado summer country? BTW you need to change your adress on your posts. Russell, I escaped from the Bay Area 3 years ago and never look back! Jack Hiles Mesa AZ __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

05-04-2006, 05:24 PM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Jack, Went well....Drove 800 miles day one, 300 day two. Couldn't find a motel that would take Magic or Belle! Unloading and trying to get to work on the holster backlog. Cold and winter here at 8000 feet, got a fire in the stove! Russell, AZ is getting so expensive I wonder if many will be able to afford housing...Good luck! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-04-2006, 10:59 PM	#10
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you Ron, Tac, Tom, David, Jerry, and Jack. Your input helped me decide to go for it. The cool part is that I figure I got it at a discount of better than 8% as Mike Krause paid the sales tax. This is not his restoration work (that was done some time ago) but he did provide the new grips. It is matching except the grips and magazine. Haven't fired it yet; might get a chance next week. I plan to get a repro stock next and then a holster. Understanding that this is not a stock-rigged type, what do you think of this one on e-bay? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...EWA%3APIC&rd=1 Might have to send it off to Jerry before I could use it. Anyhow, if this Arty sings the way I expect it to, I have dicided it will be worth the price. If not, just the tuition for a lesson at Luger U. III.221.112. Crown BNP on barrel and receiver Here are my two Lugers and the non-matching magazines they came with: 1917 LP08 DWM and 1920 P08 DWM commercial/police Would either likely be correct for either pistol? (aluminum vs wood bottom) Russell

06-04-2006, 11:52 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Nice gun. You could have spent $1500 a lot less wisely. I retract my "probably not". You did well. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-05-2006, 12:35 PM	#12
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	You can almost always get more money. But how often do you get to hold a piece of history in your hand , and get to shoot it as well ? I think you did alright! __________________ Dave

06-05-2006, 12:46 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Russell, For $ 1500...I think you did very well. At my local gun shop in Walnut Creek, CA, you would pay over $ 1200 for a junky, doggy, mis-matched Arty shooter...usually with a broken TD lever spring to boot. May I ask : 1. How is your bore condition ? 2. Could you post a photo of the bottom of the wooden magazine. It appears your magazine may be a Swiss Bern wooden luger...just would like to see the bottom to confirm this. Congratulations on a great looking piece ! p.s. Regarding the e-Bay holster link. That same seller, LF member Randy Bessler, also has this very nice repro holster FS on his web site. You might look at this one as you could eventually get it set up with a woodend stock and straps, etc. http://www.collectorfirearms.org/Lug...ems/LI-264.htm

06-05-2006, 03:22 PM	#14
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thank you Ron, David, and Pete, Three thumbs up makes me feel really goodÃ¢?Â¦.as does holding this bit of history. Now the questions begin. Some must seem quite basic but here goes. How is barrel length measured? For the LP08 I get about 7 1/8 in. from the muzzle to the front of the receiver; about 7 7/8 in. to the breech. For the P08 I get just about 4 inches shorter. I would guess that official measurements are metric. When someone says he has a 7-inch Navy, a 6-inch American Eagle, or a 4-inch barrel; what is likely to be the true length? There is no number on the rear toggle pin nor on the firing pin retainer. Should there be? I would suppose that the ramp sight is graduated in hundreds of meters. If I find a way to hold it steady enough to accurately zero the sight is it advisable to invest in the adjusting tool and attempt it? Is there a standard range at which to zero? Can anyone tell about the unit mark 'III.221.112.'? If I can get clear pictures of the tiny markings on the barrel and receiver I will post, along with mag markings, which look similar in placement and character to the aluminum I have. From the Tech section I gather this Luger has standard DWM proofs 1914-1918 and British import/capture proofs as well. Once again this forum and all of you are my primary resource for knowledge, information, guidance, and inspiration as I indulge my new passion. Many thanks, Russell

06-05-2006, 11:34 PM	#15
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 278 Thanks: 109 Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts	Russell, * The barrel measurement is from the front of the breech face w/out the firing pin extended to the crown of the barrel. A pencil inserted eraser end first into an uncocked, unloaded P.08's barrel, scribed/marked @ the crown, retracted & measured is a good method of assessing the barrel's length. Of course, its going to take a "loooong pencil" to do an Arty. Your 7 & 7/8ths" = 7.875" is awfully close. * P.08 = 100mm = 3.937". Called a 4" Bbl. * LP.06 Navy = 150mm = 5.906". Called a 6" Bbl. * LP.08 Arty = 200mm = 7.874". Called an 8" Bbl. * The toggle pin was not S/numbered in the Imperial era. Wasn't till '33 that this pin began to be numbered. The F/Pin retainer was not S/numbered. * Trust this helps. Respectfully, Bob

06-06-2006, 01:38 PM	#16
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Russell, Now just go out and have fun with it. I did the same thing as you. I bought my first Luger to get started and never dreamed I would own an Artillery. I kept my nose to the grindstone and it seemes like it took me no time to 1) get the Arty, 2)find a stock, and 3) find a holster. Then, with the help of some beautiful pieces made by Jerry Burney, I have a nice rig I am proud to own and shoot. You'll have the same in no time. Jack Hiles Mesa AZ/Ex SF Bay __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

06-06-2006, 02:37 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Russell, You might find the nice wooden grips a bit too delicate and they could become easily damaged at the range. You might want to find a pair of the nice VOPO plastic grips and use them when you go out shooting. They are seeminly indestructible. They pop up on e-Bay for $ 30 or so and I think our Luger Doc still sells them as well. The Mike Krause shop might have some, as well. Here is what they look like :

06-06-2006, 11:11 PM	#18
Parabellus User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: SF Bay Posts: 195 Thanks: 16 Thanked 9 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks friends, As I try to refine my photographic skill with a modest camera I got a few pics to show the magazine and proofs. I uploaded them but left the links on the office computer instead of my thumb drive. I'll get them posted early tomorrow. For now let me reference the 'Technical Information' section under 'Markings', 'Proof Marks', 'Proof 2' #15 for DWM 1914-1918 manufacture, and 'Proof 6' #60 as my source for the British markings. All are present on the underside of the barrel and I'm still trying to photograph that part. I have to figure out the lighting. Tac, I would like nothing better than to think that this fine weapon was liberated from a German artillery officer by a British soldier. Pete, the bore is very good. It must not have been fired in a long time. I took the gun down to clean out some old gum from the firing pin, ways, and toggle joints and oiled it up. Grip replacement sounds like a good idea. It looks like we are neighbors here in the East Bay. Bob, your info is quite helpful. Thank you very much. Jack, I plan to do pretty much what you say. What a great hobby this is! I can't wait to shoot it now, but I will because I live in town. Russell __________________

06-07-2006, 12:00 AM	#19
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I thoroughly examined this piece at Mike Krause's shop before Russell made his purchase. It is a very attractive luger and very well done. The unit markings on the front grip strap are not to be found in Jeff Noll's book and are probably Weimar. The British proofs are interesting. A very nice addition to a beginning collection and at a good price.

06-07-2006, 12:09 AM	#20
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Russell, I am over in the Easy Bay...I used to get over to the Krause shop and hang out with member Doc Fisher and chat lugers with Mike Krause...but work has keep me away of late. You might also try to make the Reno gun show this August. Always a bunch of lugers (authentic and many not) but it is a show that one can learn a lot about lugers and several LF members always attend. Sometimes a dinner event with fellow luger nuts gets organized. Here is the gun show link : http://www.bigrenoshow.com/ As far as shooting goes, is the Jackson Arms indoor range off the Hwy. 101 near Grande Ave. in So. SF still in business ? I had shot there 4-5 times and it is a decent indoor range.