Dutch Luger

[raygun]

hello everyone , just signing in for my first post . I have been a collector and shooter for many years , but have just bought my first Luger .

I don't have it in my posession yet as it is an incredibly tedious process to acquire any firearm onto your license here in Australia .

One has to apply to the police for a permit to acquire each and every new gun , even if you have a license and several guns already .

Any way as a part of the process I have been studying it and learning about Lugers in general which has been fun and exciting .

It is a DWM dutch Luger apparently made in 1930 . I say apparently as a little conflicting information has come to light . More on this later . In the mean time I am reading "The Dutch Luger" by Martens & De Varies , an excellent work . I also have "the Luger story " and finally tracked down a copy of "Lugers at Random" at a good price in England !

So as you can see I am "Into it "

regards to all - you seem like a nice polite and knowledgable bunch of blokes -- like most gun people I know !

[raygun]

Thanks for the welcome and interest shown "tac" .

yes I gather the only handguns you can shoot in the UK are air pistols and black powder ? But I thought you may have been able to "collect" live historical pistols ? I know you can have deactivated examples without a license .

Yes the paperwork here is horendous but it is managable as long as your determined . My dutch luger is just up the road at the local gun dealers , but I have visiting rights -- at least once a week , untill the final papers come through .

I thought only Australians used the term "drongo" ! Not even too well known here anymore . I am from north queensland and my father who was a timber getter and cane cutter used it frequently . I doubt if our American cousins know it at all . Like much of our slang we probably inherited it from our London slum ancestors !



Back to the dutch luger , it has a very low serial number 1428 . According to the chart of luger deliveries to the dutch on page 245 of Martens & de vries "the dutch luger" -- from now on abbreviated to "TDL" there are only two possibilities , 1912 with numbers 1 to 2141 or 1930 with numbers 1085 to 1484 .

The pistol has two numbers stamped on the barrel , one matches the serial and the other looks a lot like 1930 . Apparently the dutch changed barrels in tropical indonesia every 6 to 7 years and always stamped the year it was newly fitted on the barrel , but I wouldn't have thought they would have re stamped the serial number as well -- maybe .

Why its confusing is that according to "TDL" that batch of guns 1085 to 1484 were issued to the dutch navy and were of the P08 pattern without the grip safety . My gun has the grip safety of the earlier 1906 pattern !?

So there you have it , a work in progress .

By the way I would highly recomend "The Dutch Luger" to any serious luger collector , it is a superb book with beautifull illustrations , charts , old photos and engineers drawings and contains much more than just info about the dutch contract lugers . Its a bargain at arround 50 dollars .

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._003_copy1.jpg

all my best .

[raygun]

Originally posted by tacfoley
raygun - not so. Remember that the UK is not one place, but a bunch of separate countries, hence UNITED Kingdom. Cartridge-firing handguns made after 1 Jan 1918 are prohibited in England, Scotland and Wales, but the 'long-barrelled revolver' and 'single-shot pistol' are permitted, so long as they are 24" long overall.


You CAN collect live historical handguns, but you are not permitted to shoot them, and in any case, you must already be a full Section 1 Firearms Certificate [FAC] holder to have one or more.]

so can you collect any Lugers [pre 1918 perhaps] in working order , or do they have to be deactivated ?

Originally posted by tacfoley
tac, not "tac", just tac - if you had a name like mine you'd be grateful for an abbreviation.

OK tac it shall be .

[Ron Wood]

raygun,

Your 1906 pattern Dutch Luger is an M11 delivered as part of the second contract in August of 1912. It properly has a grip safety and the Crown over "W" ("Wilhelmina") proof will be found on the right side of the receiver. After this contract, the proof was moved to the left side of the receiver where it remained for subsequent contracts. This information is found on page 128 of TDL.

The 1930 on the barrel is the date of the last arsenal rework of the gun.

The 1930 contract pistols were for the Navy and, as you have observed, had a stock lug, no grip safety and the "RUST" safety marking has a downward pointing arrow vice the upward pointing arrow on your pistol.

[John Sabato]

Tac, you won't find anything in my pockets except lint... and maybe car-keys... But that doesn't keep me from reading and posting here with the guys you described as thinking that the numbers you mention are pocket change... Hopefully one of these days they will drop some pocket change when I am close by...

[raygun]

Originally posted by Ron Wood
raygun,

Your 1906 pattern Dutch Luger is an M11 delivered as part of the second contract in August of 1912. It properly has a grip safety and the Crown over "W" ("Wilhelmina") proof will be found on the right side of the receiver. After this contract, the proof was moved to the left side of the receiver where it remained for subsequent contracts. This information is found on page 128 of TDL.

Thanks for clarifing that dilema for me Ron , I shall have a carefull look for that proof mark. Actually I'm pleased that it is such an early model . so does that make it a "real" Luger rather than a "reproduction"
as per your signature ?!

By the way do you know Ron Hayes here in Brisbane , he is an aquaintance of mine , we are in the same collectors club . He had a very fine Luger collection which he recently donated to the singleton Military museum . Unfortunately he is getting on in years and is suffering ill health.
He has just sold up and surendered his dealers license .

[raygun]

Originally posted by tacfoley

AFAIAC, there is one insurmountable problem there, collectable - that is NON-deactivated - Lugers of any kind over here in UK are sold for figures that would curl your teeth, Try $20-25K for a Krieghoff, $15K for a Navy and $4-5000 for an average shooter. Even my de-activated 1918 DWM and byf42, both all-matching, would push the buttons at around $2500+ each if I ever wanted to sell them - I am being asked quite regularly as well.
tac

Thats a surprise tac , I am a frequent visitor to the UK on business and have seen a bevy of superb firearms at gunshows , Many you just don't see out here all deactivated and going for very reasonable prices . But I guess Lugers are special aren't they !

I have been to Oregon too , lots of fir trees [I think] relaxed gun laws and the constant drizzle of rain - not that you would notice that, after living in England !

I know what you mean about the cost of living in the UK , when ever I'm staying in a hotel in London , even a "cheap" one . I feel like I'm standing in the window throwing 20 dollar bills out !

[raygun]

Originally posted by tacfoley


Please, on your next trip to UK, find me a LIVE-firing Luger under �£2500, and then give me a call.

tac

No thanks , I don't fancy going to jail for something I've been doing routinely all my life ! By the way which city / town do you live in ?
If you don't want to say I will quite understand .

[raygun]

Originally posted by tacfoley
It was not an invitation to commit a crime - it was intended to give you something else to do whilst having a laff at the way we have to do things here.

I'll say it again, IF you can find a live-firing Luger at one of the many shows you say you go to here in UK, please let me know - I AM legal to own such a weapon, just never bothered.

OK will keep an eye out .

I wasn't made to feel very welcome last time though , some bastard blew up my favorite train , the circle line , just up the road from the hotel I was staying in at Padington !

Originally posted by tacfoley

After having commanded troops in the field, I'm a mite reticent about allowing my shooting to be dictated to me by a spotty-faced oik standing there saying 'You may now shoot your five shots, Mr tac... mind you hand me back five empty cases....'

I can just imagine how you feel .
I have several friends in my club who served , some in Vietnam . They feel the same .

Originally posted by tacfoley

Whilst in yUK, for the shortest time possible, I can tell you, we live, if that's the word, in East Anglia - that's the lumpy bit that sticks out of the right-hand side of the big island.
tac

Yup I know it . I mostly see my suppliers and contacts in London , Birmingham/Coventry and one down in South Devon . But getting arround Britain is a breeze on the trains.

America is far more difficult , you either have to fly or drive , and I can't drive on the right -- too terrifying .

[raygun]

Originally posted by Ron Wood
raygun,

Your 1906 pattern Dutch Luger is an M11 delivered as part of the second contract in August of 1912. It properly has a grip safety and the Crown over "W" ("Wilhelmina") proof will be found on the right side of the receiver. After this contract, the proof was moved to the left side of the receiver where it remained for subsequent contracts. This information is found on page 128 of TDL.

Ron I have had another look at it today under a strong magnifing glass and sure enough , the crown over a W proof is there on the right hand side of the receiver just behind the barrel -- so she is a 1912 for sure . I'm rapt . All numbered parts are matching. shame it has been rebarreled , but at least it was a service/ arsenal job and lets face it they were made to be used.

When the Japanese defeated the dutch in Indonesia in 1942 , many dutch servicemen were rescued by the Australian and allied navies . This is no doubt how it came to be in Australia . To me it has greater provenance to think it may have been used in the defence of our region .

[Vlim]

That's correct, many Dutch airman and navy crew, as well as civilians and normal military evacuated to Australia when it became clear the battle was lost.

If the barrel still bears the serial number and a crown/N proof, it hasn't been rebarreled, just refurbished.

The crown/W is not a proof but a property mark. The Dutch didn't see a need to proof the guns when the countries where they originated from had very effective proof laws of their own.

ps: Information about Dutch Lugers in Lugers at Random is erratic at best. Martens & De Vries 's 'The Dutch Luger' is completely based on surviving Dutch archive material.

[Went Blakely]

nice find Raygun, glad to see there are some fellow Aussies' interested in collecting and researching these lovely pieces! i think your laws are even more lenient than ours down here in New South Wales.......even replica guns are illegal! pm sent by the way

[raygun]

Originally posted by newbyluger
nice find Raygun, glad to see there are some fellow Aussies' interested in collecting and researching these lovely pieces! i think your laws are even more lenient than ours down here in New South Wales.......even replica guns are illegal! pm sent by the way

G,day mate !
Not too much difference in the laws , but perhaps some in their interpretation and enforcement . PM received , will answer shortly .

[raygun]

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren

The crown/W is not a proof but a property mark. The Dutch didn't see a need to proof the guns when the countries where they originated from had very effective proof laws of their own.

ps: Information about Dutch Lugers in Lugers at Random is erratic at best. Martens & De Vries 's 'The Dutch Luger' is completely based on surviving Dutch archive material.

Yes quite right the crown/w is not a proof but a property mark .
I will have a look for any proof marks on the barel or elseware.

Indeed Martens & de Vries is an excellent piece of original research .

Do you have any Lugers of your own , if so what models ?

[Vlim]

Hi,

We've got pretty strict regulations over here as well, that seriously limits the amount of lugers I can keep in my safe. So I opted for a cross-over between useability and interest (it means I actually get to shoot them as well):

1917 DWM LP08 with matching stock.
1913 DWM Dutch Luger with KNIL brass regiment plate.
1937 S/42 P08.
1972-and-a-half Mauser Parabellum.
1914-ish Mauser C96 with stock.

Then a fair share of 7.65 Para, 7.62 Mauser, 9mm Mauser and 9mm para ammunition spanning almost a century in age.

And some assorted paperwork including the company histories of the key players in luger production history, a good deal of Hiram Stevens and Hudson Maxim publications, most of them signed by the authors, DWM and Mauser company correspondence, assorted manuals, lexicons and brochures dating back to the early 1900s. Most of the documentation dates from before 1940.

I really need to do an inventory soon.

[raygun]

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren
Hi,

We've got pretty strict regulations over here as well, that seriously limits the amount of lugers I can keep in my safe. So I opted for a cross-over between useability and interest (it means I actually get to shoot them as well):

1917 DWM LP08 with matching stock.
1913 DWM Dutch Luger with KNIL brass regiment plate.
1937 S/42 P08.
1972-and-a-half Mauser Parabellum.
1914-ish Mauser C96 with stock.

Then a fair share of 7.65 Para, 7.62 Mauser, 9mm Mauser and 9mm para ammunition spanning almost a century in age.

And some assorted paperwork including the company histories of the key players in luger production history, a good deal of Hiram Stevens and Hudson Maxim publications, most of them signed by the authors, DWM and Mauser company correspondence, assorted manuals, lexicons and brochures dating back to the early 1900s. Most of the documentation dates from before 1940.

I really need to do an inventory soon.

Thats quite a nice little collection . your 1913 model must have been in the batch just after mime [1912] , what's the serial number if you don't mind me asking ? Most people collect relevant books and ammunition to go with their guns but few would think to collect manufacturer history or documentation -- well done . Is it original papers or copies , and how did you manage to come by it -- might give some of us some clues as to how to go about such research ?

[Vlim]

Hi, the 1913 is numbered 2850. It was the first luger I bought and I had all the luck in the world, buying a Dutch KNIL Luger in the Netherlands. Lugers, let alone Dutch ones, are not growing on trees here.

My interest in DWM put me on the trace of some interesting documentation. Basically I'd find a good book, then use the references in that book to find the referenced book, etc... With the internet it's pretty easy to find certain publications and sometimes it's just dumb luck. I also got some material from collectors who sadly passed away. A lot of hunting was done on ebay Germany, but that has pretty much dried up now, and what's still there is rediculously expensive.

We do have some local ammunition collecting related trade shows over here, which are off-limits to non-permit holders. Nice stuff pops up there now and again as well.

I always try to go for the original material, nothing beats reading an 80 year old reference book (or the smell of it

[raygun]

Here are some better quality photos of my dutch luger.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05432.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05462.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05482.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05582.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05632.jpg

[raygun]

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren

We do have some local ammunition collecting related trade shows over here, which are off-limits to non-permit holders. Nice stuff pops up there now and again as well.

Do you not have gun shows or arms exhibitions that are open to the public ? I have seen a lot of Dutch dealers at some of the big shows like Beltring in England .

[Vlim]

Hi,

Nope, guns and ammunition are strictly regulated, although pre-1870 guns are free (and some pre-1945 combinations, b.t.w.). So anything requiring a permit is only put on tables at official shows where the public consists only of permit holders.