Bulgarian Luger?

thegundude · 12-04-2005, 12:59 PM

Hey guys,

I have a chance to buy a "Bulgarian" Luger. It's been refinished and most of the markings have been "defaced", as in removed enitrely and not just scratched out. This was done in the refinish process. I'm told it has a hole for the lanyard ring on the bottom, but I only have thos one picture of the gun so I can't tell for sure. He's offering a 3 day looksee and i trust the guy for the most part...

That's the extent of the info I have on it. I can pick it up for $600. Any thoughts? I've asked him for more pictures but we'll see...

Bulgarian Luger

Thanks for any help you may offer.

Pete Ebbink · 12-04-2005, 01:27 PM

Steve...

$ 600 seems to be a going rate for mechanically sound shooters...

Cannot be sure...but the profile of the barrel looks like it might be 7,65 mm (.30 luger). I would ask the seller...do you want a 9 mm shooter ?

Do you have a serial number ?...Folks could check to see if proper for a Bulgarian...

thegundude · 12-04-2005, 01:51 PM

Thanks Pete, those are two questions I have into him too. Caliber and serial number... He's not into Lugers and probably doesn't even know they come in two calibers, so he didn't mention it. Just gave me this pic, told me it was refinsihed with deminished markings and has that hole. I'll post an update as soon as he gets back to me...

I guess it really does come down to it being a fair price for a shooter, assuming it's in 9mm. And it's hard to find anything for less than six, even in bad condition. He says this one is in about 95% reblue... It looks about like that.

Thanks again...

Mike B · 12-04-2005, 08:43 PM

Steve,
Don't be too quick to write off the "defacing" on the Bulgarian. It is not uncommon to find these Lugers in this condition. I have one like this and I was told it was "sanitized" for political reasons. The markings over the chamber and the the lion proof on the right side of the receiver could be ground off. As far as the holes for the lanyard loop, a Bulgarian is supposed to have the loop on the bottom of the grip. It is not uncommon to find mismated parts as well, as these lugers were subjected to lots of action in both world wars and countless other minor wars. $600 sounds way cheap to me for a Bulgarian even if it is marginal but it should be a 9mm.
Mike

thegundude · 12-04-2005, 11:45 PM

Thanks Mike. So I'm looking for a 9mm with the hole on the bottom then, huh...

I'm still waiting to hear back from him. Maybe sometime tomorrow...

Lugerdoc · 12-05-2005, 09:30 AM

Only the M1908 Bulgarian was in 9mm with the lanyard loop at the bottom of the grip. During WW2 many of the M1900s & M06s were rebarreled to 9mm, but these would be the grip safety, no stock lug type frames. TH

thegundude · 12-05-2005, 10:28 AM

Tom, based on this one bad picture, what do you think of it?

Hard to tell, I know, but I'm not sure I'll be getting a better picture...

Dwight Gruber · 12-05-2005, 10:39 AM

It certainly looks like a Bulgarian frame.

If it were me, for $600 I'd sure take the chance.

--Dwight

thegundude · 12-05-2005, 10:58 AM

Thanks Dwight. That's what I'm thinking too, but without the advice of you experts I'm kinda lost...

I'll give him a call and see where we stand on it.

Dwight Gruber · 12-05-2005, 12:46 PM

Steve,

You can find a discussion on "sanitized" 1908 Bulgarian here http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic...ized,bulgarian

Be sure to ask the owner what is stamped under the thumb safety lever and on the extractor, for a proper Bulgarian they should be in Cyrillic.

--Dwight

thegundude · 12-05-2005, 12:57 PM

Dwight, I just got off the phone with him. He says that the area under the safety has been milled out. He says it was nicely done but clearly not factory. The extractor is the only thing not sanitized and retains the proper markings.

When I asked him for some better pictures, he didn't sound like he was interested in taking any more pics, but would be happy to simply send it to me for inspection prior to purchase. If I didn't like what I saw I was free to send it back to him. I guess a fellow can't ask for any better than that...

He represents this gun as a solid shooter and that's all. The top numbers are all matching but different from the frame, though both are of Bulgarian origin. I'm guessing that this was a refurb done at an armory because he says the blueing is among the nicest he's seen on a Luger before. Although he doesn't claim anything like the kind of collection most of you all can boast of.

He sounds like a real nice guy and his trust in me is well placed. I'll give it a lookover and post you all some better pictures.

Dwight, thanks for the link. Looks like I'll doing some reading this evening...

pipeman45 · 12-05-2005, 08:59 PM

For $600 I would have him send it. If it's not what you want send it back. How can you loose anything but the shipping cost?

thegundude · 12-05-2005, 11:46 PM

Yeah, I'm guessing he'll send it as soon as he gets my FFL. I sent it out today...

And really, for $600 I'll probably just keep it anyway... I can't say no to a good looking (or ugly) Luger...

thegundude · 12-16-2005, 08:54 PM

... got some pictures. Sorry for the cruddy shots but my camera stinks at closeups...

It's definately refinished. Nearly all of the markings have been ground off, top of the toggle, top of the chamber (date) and right front of the frame (proofmarks). It's been machined along the safety marking and has absolutly no matching part numbers. He says these are also replacment grips - by him. Not sure if he has the originals (not that it would matter). Underneath the barrel it's marked "Made in Germany". There are two proofmarks, the number 3 and the number 20, each in a box.

As I said, it's refinished. It looks pretty good, considering all of the markings have been ground off. The blue job still looks fairly nice though there are some areas of minor wear. You can see some old pitting that remained from when it was done. I'd rate the overall finish at about 95% or better. The trigger and all strawed parts were blued.

Sorry if the images aren't sized correctly...

Herb · 12-16-2005, 10:53 PM

Steve, I've got one of these Lugers too. I've had it several years now and I still have no idea why it was 'sanitized'. Mine is in mint condition and appears to have been a commercial as it has a five digit serial number and no suffix. All numbers match less the mag and sideplate. Like yours the cyrillic lettering under the safety lever has been milled out but the extractor has the cryllic lettering on it. Since getting it I've stripped the small parts and restrawed them. I have never shot it but the guy I bought it from says he fired it three times and it worked fine. I saw another one of them at Ralph Shattucks house in 2002 during the LugerFest that makes four of them so far. I really like the looks of it and hope to someday find out more about it.

Dwight Gruber · 12-17-2005, 02:40 AM

Steve,

There was no date on the chamber, originally 1908 Bulgarian had the DWM hallmark on the -chamber-, and the Bulgarian crest on the front toggle.

As far as I am concerned sanitazed 1908 Bulgarian are collection-worthy pieces, and if the seller can track down the original grips be sure to get them--it most assuredly matters.

Herb,

Check out the link in my post above for some info on these guns.

--Dwight

thegundude · 12-17-2005, 10:37 AM

Thanks Dwight & Herb. I guess I'll pick up this piece even though every part is mismatched. I'll try to get the original grips too, assuming he still has them.

FWIW, both of the mags he sent me are brand new Mec-Gar mags and don't match period mags...

So, over all, what is this thing worth? I understand how these things can be subjective but I need to know if I'm buying an expensive, funny looking shooter or does it have value and is worth adding to a collection?

Again, thanks.

Herb · 12-17-2005, 11:41 AM

Steve, I bought a set of Bulgarina grips from Tom Heller, also a forum member, and then sent them to Hugn Clark, another forum member, for a little of this magic. Juat a thought if you want to dress it up a lilttle.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ight=bulgarian
Dwight, I saw that link when you posted it a while back, lots of good info but still no info as to actual origion and why. A lot of guessing, the Russians did it for political reasons, why, and apparently only the Bulgarians, no other mfg. Also why did they mill off the safe markings, they were cyrillic, that is the alphabet the Russians use so why do that. The american importer did it, again why, Bulgarian crests are not on the bad guy list nor are the DWM logos. I think these things need a lot more research to try to get to the bottom of this issue.

Lugerdoc · 12-17-2005, 01:48 PM

Steve, I do still have a few nice sets of Original M1908 Bulgarian grips available in the $50 to $75 range. Also a WAG why the Bulgarian marking may have all been milled out and "made in Germany" added: In the immediate post WW2 era, Bulgaria, a former axis nation, was part of the Soviet bloc and probably not allowed to export to the US, or at best subject to some high import duties. I once purchased some letter dies from Canada and rather than the normal 11% duty, was charged 49% since they were made in Czechoslavia.

thegundude · 12-17-2005, 02:01 PM

Tom, thanks for that. I'm going to try and find out if he still has the original grips yet. If he doesn't, I'm giving you a call...

I both like this gun and hate it. Should I buy it, and I probably will, it will be the oly one in my arsenal that doesn't have matching numbers. That's of any gun, not just Lugers. I'm not real big on unmatched guns, even shooters. Then again, if it has collector value, I'll add it to my collection and be happy with it.

12-04-2005, 12:59 PM	#1
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Bulgarian Luger? Hey guys, I have a chance to buy a "Bulgarian" Luger. It's been refinished and most of the markings have been "defaced", as in removed enitrely and not just scratched out. This was done in the refinish process. I'm told it has a hole for the lanyard ring on the bottom, but I only have thos one picture of the gun so I can't tell for sure. He's offering a 3 day looksee and i trust the guy for the most part... That's the extent of the info I have on it. I can pick it up for $600. Any thoughts? I've asked him for more pictures but we'll see... Bulgarian Luger Thanks for any help you may offer. __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-04-2005, 01:51 PM	#3
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Pete, those are two questions I have into him too. Caliber and serial number... He's not into Lugers and probably doesn't even know they come in two calibers, so he didn't mention it. Just gave me this pic, told me it was refinsihed with deminished markings and has that hole. I'll post an update as soon as he gets back to me... I guess it really does come down to it being a fair price for a shooter, assuming it's in 9mm. And it's hard to find anything for less than six, even in bad condition. He says this one is in about 95% reblue... It looks about like that. Thanks again... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-04-2005, 11:45 PM	#5
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Mike. So I'm looking for a 9mm with the hole on the bottom then, huh... I'm still waiting to hear back from him. Maybe sometime tomorrow... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-05-2005, 09:30 AM	#6
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Only the M1908 Bulgarian was in 9mm with the lanyard loop at the bottom of the grip. During WW2 many of the M1900s & M06s were rebarreled to 9mm, but these would be the grip safety, no stock lug type frames. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-05-2005, 10:28 AM	#7
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Tom, based on this one bad picture, what do you think of it? Hard to tell, I know, but I'm not sure I'll be getting a better picture... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-04-2005, 01:27 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Steve... $ 600 seems to be a going rate for mechanically sound shooters... Cannot be sure...but the profile of the barrel looks like it might be 7,65 mm (.30 luger). I would ask the seller...do you want a 9 mm shooter ? Do you have a serial number ?...Folks could check to see if proper for a Bulgarian...

12-04-2005, 08:43 PM	#4
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Steve, Don't be too quick to write off the "defacing" on the Bulgarian. It is not uncommon to find these Lugers in this condition. I have one like this and I was told it was "sanitized" for political reasons. The markings over the chamber and the the lion proof on the right side of the receiver could be ground off. As far as the holes for the lanyard loop, a Bulgarian is supposed to have the loop on the bottom of the grip. It is not uncommon to find mismated parts as well, as these lugers were subjected to lots of action in both world wars and countless other minor wars. $600 sounds way cheap to me for a Bulgarian even if it is marginal but it should be a 9mm. Mike

12-05-2005, 10:39 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	It certainly looks like a Bulgarian frame. If it were me, for $600 I'd sure take the chance. --Dwight

12-05-2005, 10:58 AM	#9
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Dwight. That's what I'm thinking too, but without the advice of you experts I'm kinda lost... I'll give him a call and see where we stand on it. __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-05-2005, 12:46 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Steve, You can find a discussion on "sanitized" 1908 Bulgarian here http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic...ized,bulgarian Be sure to ask the owner what is stamped under the thumb safety lever and on the extractor, for a proper Bulgarian they should be in Cyrillic. --Dwight

12-05-2005, 12:57 PM	#11
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Dwight, I just got off the phone with him. He says that the area under the safety has been milled out. He says it was nicely done but clearly not factory. The extractor is the only thing not sanitized and retains the proper markings. When I asked him for some better pictures, he didn't sound like he was interested in taking any more pics, but would be happy to simply send it to me for inspection prior to purchase. If I didn't like what I saw I was free to send it back to him. I guess a fellow can't ask for any better than that... He represents this gun as a solid shooter and that's all. The top numbers are all matching but different from the frame, though both are of Bulgarian origin. I'm guessing that this was a refurb done at an armory because he says the blueing is among the nicest he's seen on a Luger before. Although he doesn't claim anything like the kind of collection most of you all can boast of. He sounds like a real nice guy and his trust in me is well placed. I'll give it a lookover and post you all some better pictures. Dwight, thanks for the link. Looks like I'll doing some reading this evening... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-05-2005, 08:59 PM	#12
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	For $600 I would have him send it. If it's not what you want send it back. How can you loose anything but the shipping cost? __________________ Dave

12-05-2005, 11:46 PM	#13
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Yeah, I'm guessing he'll send it as soon as he gets my FFL. I sent it out today... And really, for $600 I'll probably just keep it anyway... I can't say no to a good looking (or ugly) Luger... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-16-2005, 08:54 PM	#14
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Okay, finally got it and... ... got some pictures. Sorry for the cruddy shots but my camera stinks at closeups... It's definately refinished. Nearly all of the markings have been ground off, top of the toggle, top of the chamber (date) and right front of the frame (proofmarks). It's been machined along the safety marking and has absolutly no matching part numbers. He says these are also replacment grips - by him. Not sure if he has the originals (not that it would matter). Underneath the barrel it's marked "Made in Germany". There are two proofmarks, the number 3 and the number 20, each in a box. As I said, it's refinished. It looks pretty good, considering all of the markings have been ground off. The blue job still looks fairly nice though there are some areas of minor wear. You can see some old pitting that remained from when it was done. I'd rate the overall finish at about 95% or better. The trigger and all strawed parts were blued. Sorry if the images aren't sized correctly... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-16-2005, 10:53 PM	#15
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Steve, I've got one of these Lugers too. I've had it several years now and I still have no idea why it was 'sanitized'. Mine is in mint condition and appears to have been a commercial as it has a five digit serial number and no suffix. All numbers match less the mag and sideplate. Like yours the cyrillic lettering under the safety lever has been milled out but the extractor has the cryllic lettering on it. Since getting it I've stripped the small parts and restrawed them. I have never shot it but the guy I bought it from says he fired it three times and it worked fine. I saw another one of them at Ralph Shattucks house in 2002 during the LugerFest that makes four of them so far. I really like the looks of it and hope to someday find out more about it. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

12-17-2005, 02:40 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Steve, There was no date on the chamber, originally 1908 Bulgarian had the DWM hallmark on the -chamber-, and the Bulgarian crest on the front toggle. As far as I am concerned sanitazed 1908 Bulgarian are collection-worthy pieces, and if the seller can track down the original grips be sure to get them--it most assuredly matters. Herb, Check out the link in my post above for some info on these guns. --Dwight

12-17-2005, 10:37 AM	#17
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Dwight & Herb. I guess I'll pick up this piece even though every part is mismatched. I'll try to get the original grips too, assuming he still has them. FWIW, both of the mags he sent me are brand new Mec-Gar mags and don't match period mags... So, over all, what is this thing worth? I understand how these things can be subjective but I need to know if I'm buying an expensive, funny looking shooter or does it have value and is worth adding to a collection? Again, thanks. __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-17-2005, 11:41 AM	#18
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Steve, I bought a set of Bulgarina grips from Tom Heller, also a forum member, and then sent them to Hugn Clark, another forum member, for a little of this magic. Juat a thought if you want to dress it up a lilttle. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ight=bulgarian Dwight, I saw that link when you posted it a while back, lots of good info but still no info as to actual origion and why. A lot of guessing, the Russians did it for political reasons, why, and apparently only the Bulgarians, no other mfg. Also why did they mill off the safe markings, they were cyrillic, that is the alphabet the Russians use so why do that. The american importer did it, again why, Bulgarian crests are not on the bad guy list nor are the DWM logos. I think these things need a lot more research to try to get to the bottom of this issue. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

12-17-2005, 01:48 PM	#19
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Steve, I do still have a few nice sets of Original M1908 Bulgarian grips available in the $50 to $75 range. Also a WAG why the Bulgarian marking may have all been milled out and "made in Germany" added: In the immediate post WW2 era, Bulgaria, a former axis nation, was part of the Soviet bloc and probably not allowed to export to the US, or at best subject to some high import duties. I once purchased some letter dies from Canada and rather than the normal 11% duty, was charged 49% since they were made in Czechoslavia. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-17-2005, 02:01 PM	#20
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Tom, thanks for that. I'm going to try and find out if he still has the original grips yet. If he doesn't, I'm giving you a call... I both like this gun and hate it. Should I buy it, and I probably will, it will be the oly one in my arsenal that doesn't have matching numbers. That's of any gun, not just Lugers. I'm not real big on unmatched guns, even shooters. Then again, if it has collector value, I'll add it to my collection and be happy with it. __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve