How many shots with a Luger does it take to kill a cow?

Roadkill · 05-19-2003, 10:28 PM

In 1901, President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Brigadier General William Crozier as Chief of Army Ordnance. In 1904, Crozier assigned two individuals, Captain John T. Thompson of the Infantry and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps, to investigate and recommend which caliber should be used in any new service handgun. At the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago, Illinois, they tested several types of handguns, calibers and bullet styles against both live cattle and medical cadavers. Before continuing, some definitions about the types of animals and the bullet types used in the testing are needed:

Animal Terms and Definitions

Bull: Mature male bovine
Cow: Mature female bovine
Steer: Male bovine castrated before maturity
Stag: Male bovine castrated after maturity

The first day of live animal testing involved shooting eight head of cattle with rounds fired at selected target areas while timing the events. The time scale in the tables below is shown in minutes and seconds. The testing went as follows:
7.65mm Luger
Weight: 92.5 grs.
Style: FMJ-FP
Velocity: 1420 FPS
Energy: 340 FPE Stag
Weight: 1200 Ã¢?? 1300 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs left to right.
00:30 - Dead.

7.65mm Luger
Weight: 92.5 grs.
Style: FMJ-FP
Velocity: 1420 FPS
Energy: 340 FPE Cow
Weight: 950 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs three times.
01:00 - Jam; shot five times in lungs. Reloading break. Shot twice. Killed with hammer.

9mm Luger
Weight: 123.5 grs.
Style: FMJ-FP
Velocity: 1048 FPS
Energy: 301 FPE Cow
Weight: 1100 lbs. 00:00 - Shot twice through lungs.
01:00 - Jam; shot six times in lungs. Reloading break. Shot twice in abdomen and twice in lungs. Killed with hammer.

Cadaver testing:

During the cadaver testing, the bodies were hung by the head and were shot at from distances of 3 yards, 37.5 yards and 75 yards. The target areas were fleshy areas, bone ends and bone shafts.11 If a round struck a fleshy area, only the hollow point rounds produced a bare minimum of sway, but if a bone end was struck, all the rounds showed similar results, though the .455 Man-Stopper and the .476 Eley were just slightly better.12 When a round struck a bone shaft, the sway produced enabled Thompson and LaGarde to give each round a subjective measurement; in short, they watched the body sway and simply gave it a number value for comparison purposes without setting a standard to compare it to.13 The table below details these subjective measurements:

http://mwilson.hypermart.net/views/guns/1911.html#DEVEL

<img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
rk

Edward Tinker · 05-19-2003, 11:37 PM

I have read the report and find it gruesome, but how the heck can you get real data unless you conduct realistic tests?

I read a book on Thompson years ago (the Roaring Twenties, if I remember correctly) and this testing was why he chose the .45 ACP for his sub-gun.

Ed

Gene · 05-20-2003, 12:53 PM

The results of the "cadaver tests," summarized above are somewhat puzzling. If the cadavers were suspended uniformly and then shot with various bullets and loads to measure the amount of sway produced, the amount of sway should be determined entirely by the momentum of the bullet. In other words, the suspended cadaver is a ballistic pendulum so that, at the same velocity and bullet weight, the same results should be obtained regardless of bullet type (jacketed or hollow point) or whether bone or flesh was hit. But, of course, in the actual tests, the cadavers were probably not suspended in precisely the same manner due to variations in the bovines.

Thor · 05-20-2003, 12:57 PM

What amazes me his how many jams they had, my Lugers dont jam like that?

Edward Tinker · 05-20-2003, 02:04 PM

Ted, I think it was due to the inconsistancy of the loads?

They were still fairly new, I know that later for the 45 ACP, the rounds weren't even made up prior to the trials so DWM could test fire their guns and had to improvise.

Jack Lawman · 05-20-2003, 02:09 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gene:
In other words, the suspended cadaver is a ballistic pendulum so that, at the same velocity and bullet weight, the same results should be obtained regardless of bullet type (jacketed or hollow point) or whether bone or flesh was hit. <hr /></blockquote>I am certainly no ballistic expert, but I believe a hollow point shot into the shoulder blade would expend most of its energy nearly immediately and produce a greater forward momentum than say a FMJ of same weight and velocity into soft tissue. As the FMJ passes through flesh, much of its enrgy is dissipated as tissue disruption, along, and lateral to, the wound channel. Some forward momentum, but to a lesser degree.

Kind of like having two Louisville Sluggers shot at you (same mass and velocity).... one with standard butt end, other with a sharpened, vampire killing, spear point. If struck in the abdomen with the blunt bat, you would certainly end up on your butt. If struck with the spear point, much energy is spent on friction and tissue disruption, and you may be left standing with Pinnochio's belly button.

Jack

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2003, 02:36 PM

Geez Jack, Do you write stories for a living?
Pinnochio's belly button. That's a picture for you!

An early measure of velocity was a metal sheet with a heavy pendulum attached with some sort of measuring dial. As the bullet hit the top metal it would push the weighted pendulum and thusly you could measure with some consistency by reading in increments how far it pushed. Jerry Burney

Jack Lawman · 05-20-2003, 04:14 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair:
Geez Jack, Do you write stories for a living?
Pinnochio's belly button. That's a picture for you!<hr /></blockquote>I don't write them... I live them. Half of my life is spent with my children (6,4,3 years of age). The other half of my life is spent with 30,000 adults who act like children ("He crashed into my car on PURPOSE," and other such nonsense!). For three weeks a year, I get to teach 52 of the world's bravest policemen how to handle their sidearm. An outstanding bunch, but I suspect more than one took the short bus to school <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> . Sometimes I dispatch with eloquence to make my point... but they all leave my range better shooters than when they arrived.

Jack

Gene · 05-20-2003, 04:16 PM

Jack,

Not to belabor a point, but momentum (mass times velocity) is always conserved, regardless of energy considerations. In a bullet, all of the energy is kinetic while in flight, but in the target, part of the energy is kinetic in moving the bovine with imbedded bullet, and part is utilized in deforming the bullet and bovine. Thus, energy transfer is variable, as you pointed out, but the momentum is not.

Regards,
Gene

John Sabato · 05-20-2003, 05:06 PM

I believe the all time reference on this subject is known as "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian S.Hatcher.

Described by one of the sites selling it as:

"For shooters, gunsmiths, ballisticians, historians, hunters, collectors...the personal reference notes and experience of more than fifty years as a small arms engineer, trophy-winning shooter, technical gun editor"

Roadkill · 05-20-2003, 05:31 PM

The irony of this is that an Infantry Captain and a Medical Corps Major determined the development/direction/caliber/maker/ect of all military handguns for the next 100+ years based on a two day cow shooting spree and the swing of corpses hanging in a stockyard. Don't you know there were some interesting over dinner conversations made that night by the fence sitters watching the show?

rk

unspellable · 05-20-2003, 06:11 PM

I did the ballistic pendulum thing for my classical physics project. (Fancy toting a revolver about campus today! I'm giving away my age!) The bullet in flight has a momentum equal to it's velocity times it's mass. On stopping in the target the momentum is conserved. Hence the target will move a distance corresponding to the bullet's momentum regardless of the bullet style, velocity, or what it strikes internally. More momentum is imparted to the shooter than to the target since for the shooter we must also account for the velocvity and mass of the propellent gas. It also explains why the concept of "knockdown" is utter nonsense.

Energy is a different matter altogether. This is why firing a firearm doesn't ruin your health.

Energy is proprtional to the square of the velocity, the firearm has only a small energy in recoil because it is moving so much slower. The bullet is moving fast, has a large energy, and must dump this energy in the target. This is where the bullet style becomes important. If the bullet is moving fast enough, is well placed, and dumps energy quickly enough, the shock effect will cause an animate traget to quickly collapse, hence the so called "knockdown effect".

Attend any silhouette and see how difficult it is to knock over an inanimate target and you will soon agree that the "knockdown" effect is fictional.

The stockyard tests were influential in the choice of the 45 ACP. Today we know the difference in stopping power between a 45 ACP and 9 mm hardball is statistically insignificant, apocryphal anecdotes notwithstanding. No hardball is a good stopper. The key to stopping power is high velocity and a good bullet design. Weight must play a poor third.

Jack Lawman · 05-21-2003, 08:42 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jack Lawman:
Kind of like having two Louisville Sluggers shot at you (same mass and velocity).... one with standard butt end, other with a sharpened, vampire killing, spear point. If struck in the abdomen with the blunt bat, you would certainly end up on your butt. If struck with the spear point, much energy is spent on friction and tissue disruption, and you may be left standing with Pinnochio's belly button.
<hr /></blockquote>"Nothing like telling a colorful story to illustrate an erroneous point," I always say. I did my physics homework last night and discovered that the conservation of momentum is one of the BASIC physics principles (I must have been distracted in Ms. Diaz's classroom that day). Thanks for the lesson. I now possess a clear understanding of the differences between momentum and energy. I'll be taking my seat in the back of the short bus and leaving the area now <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> .

Edward Tinker · 05-21-2003, 10:37 AM

Jack....

Did you see me say a darn thing about moneto, moentm, force, no, cuz I's ain't educated in that thar stuff

I listen, nod my head and say, "Oh that's nice..." Which reminds me of a joke, but John S., wouldn't approve...

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Ed

Jack Lawman · 05-21-2003, 11:08 AM

Ed,
I've been on a steep learning curve since that short bus dropped me off at the wrong school. Hopefully I'll catch up quick, level off, and get to wear the school sweater.

Cheers to you too....
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Jack

Roadkill · 05-21-2003, 03:06 PM

Jack, had two kids here at high school last name of Budd. Both rode the little bus. Had one in ROTC that in 9 weeks never learned his right from left. One of them didn't show up for school one day and everyone was looking everywhere, ended up he got off at the wrong school, went on to class, teacher sent him to the office, he left school, Huntsville PD picked him up on a four lane in the afternoon. He was about fourteen. No idea of where he lived. We named him Budd light from then on. Probably made the bus driver sign for him every morning.

rk

Jerry.B · 06-10-2003, 10:53 PM

So this is all interesting history and a bit of humor, but what's the bottom line: For use as a police firearm and/or for use as a personal defence gun - these would seem to be the same - it all comes down to can you kill or disable the attacker with one or 2 reasnbably placed shots at a realistic range - say 15-25 yards. Given this it seems that a 7.62 is ineffective, and a 9mm comes close to a .45, but - from the professionals - if I was to make a choice of gun to buy for the purpose - which one?

lugerholsterrepair · 06-10-2003, 11:29 PM

Jerry B, Buy a 1911 style .45. Fun to shoot, accurate and no BS about how hard it hits. Even if you are a poor shot, if you hit the perp will be hurt. If you are an excellent shot go for the .22 and a head shot. A lot depends on your personality. Jerry Burney

AGE · 06-11-2003, 12:09 AM

Guys,

Energy and momentum discussions can go on a long time. The above discussions have left off a few things. If a bullet hits a pendulum (or cadaver) and stops in the body--the initial momentum of the bullet equals the momentum of the body (and bullet) just after impact. If the bullet stays in the body the bullet mass is just added to the body mass. If the bullet passes through the body then the bullet velocity (after penetration) enters the picture.

Similarly, there are a lot of energy terms to account for: initial bullet energy, final body and bullet energy, tissue and bullet damage, heat released, etc. etc. This can go on a long time, but the bullet that does the most damage is likely to be the most effective. 9 mm damage may approach .45 damage except in the case of the military which uses only full metal jacketed bullets. 9 mm FMJ bullets slide through flesh with a lot less damage than .45 FMJ bullets. Make mine a .45 (or .44).

sverre · 06-11-2003, 06:31 AM

<img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> so why the he** does almost every nation change into 5.56 why is this a better bullit than 7.62, other that you can carry more bullits. why go down in power?

Sverre.

05-19-2003, 10:28 PM	#1
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	How many shots with a Luger does it take to kill a cow? In 1901, President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Brigadier General William Crozier as Chief of Army Ordnance. In 1904, Crozier assigned two individuals, Captain John T. Thompson of the Infantry and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps, to investigate and recommend which caliber should be used in any new service handgun. At the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago, Illinois, they tested several types of handguns, calibers and bullet styles against both live cattle and medical cadavers. Before continuing, some definitions about the types of animals and the bullet types used in the testing are needed: Animal Terms and Definitions Bull: Mature male bovine Cow: Mature female bovine Steer: Male bovine castrated before maturity Stag: Male bovine castrated after maturity The first day of live animal testing involved shooting eight head of cattle with rounds fired at selected target areas while timing the events. The time scale in the tables below is shown in minutes and seconds. The testing went as follows: 7.65mm Luger Weight: 92.5 grs. Style: FMJ-FP Velocity: 1420 FPS Energy: 340 FPE Stag Weight: 1200 Ã¢?? 1300 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs left to right. 00:30 - Dead. 7.65mm Luger Weight: 92.5 grs. Style: FMJ-FP Velocity: 1420 FPS Energy: 340 FPE Cow Weight: 950 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs three times. 01:00 - Jam; shot five times in lungs. Reloading break. Shot twice. Killed with hammer. 9mm Luger Weight: 123.5 grs. Style: FMJ-FP Velocity: 1048 FPS Energy: 301 FPE Cow Weight: 1100 lbs. 00:00 - Shot twice through lungs. 01:00 - Jam; shot six times in lungs. Reloading break. Shot twice in abdomen and twice in lungs. Killed with hammer. Cadaver testing: During the cadaver testing, the bodies were hung by the head and were shot at from distances of 3 yards, 37.5 yards and 75 yards. The target areas were fleshy areas, bone ends and bone shafts.11 If a round struck a fleshy area, only the hollow point rounds produced a bare minimum of sway, but if a bone end was struck, all the rounds showed similar results, though the .455 Man-Stopper and the .476 Eley were just slightly better.12 When a round struck a bone shaft, the sway produced enabled Thompson and LaGarde to give each round a subjective measurement; in short, they watched the body sway and simply gave it a number value for comparison purposes without setting a standard to compare it to.13 The table below details these subjective measurements: http://mwilson.hypermart.net/views/guns/1911.html#DEVEL <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> rk

05-19-2003, 11:37 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I have read the report and find it gruesome, but how the heck can you get real data unless you conduct realistic tests? I read a book on Thompson years ago (the Roaring Twenties, if I remember correctly) and this testing was why he chose the .45 ACP for his sub-gun. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-20-2003, 12:57 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	What amazes me his how many jams they had, my Lugers dont jam like that? __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

05-20-2003, 02:04 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Ted, I think it was due to the inconsistancy of the loads? They were still fairly new, I know that later for the 45 ACP, the rounds weren't even made up prior to the trials so DWM could test fire their guns and had to improvise. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-20-2003, 02:09 PM	#6
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Gene: <strong>In other words, the suspended cadaver is a ballistic pendulum so that, at the same velocity and bullet weight, the same results should be obtained regardless of bullet type (jacketed or hollow point) or whether bone or flesh was hit. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I am certainly no ballistic expert, but I believe a hollow point shot into the shoulder blade would expend most of its energy nearly immediately and produce a greater forward momentum than say a FMJ of same weight and velocity into soft tissue. As the FMJ passes through flesh, much of its enrgy is dissipated as tissue disruption, along, and lateral to, the wound channel. Some forward momentum, but to a lesser degree. Kind of like having two Louisville Sluggers shot at you (same mass and velocity).... one with standard butt end, other with a sharpened, vampire killing, spear point. If struck in the abdomen with the blunt bat, you would certainly end up on your butt. If struck with the spear point, much energy is spent on friction and tissue disruption, and you may be left standing with Pinnochio's belly button. Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

05-20-2003, 12:53 PM	#3
Gene User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The results of the "cadaver tests," summarized above are somewhat puzzling. If the cadavers were suspended uniformly and then shot with various bullets and loads to measure the amount of sway produced, the amount of sway should be determined entirely by the momentum of the bullet. In other words, the suspended cadaver is a ballistic pendulum so that, at the same velocity and bullet weight, the same results should be obtained regardless of bullet type (jacketed or hollow point) or whether bone or flesh was hit. But, of course, in the actual tests, the cadavers were probably not suspended in precisely the same manner due to variations in the bovines.

05-20-2003, 02:36 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,104 Times in 1,429 Posts	Geez Jack, Do you write stories for a living? Pinnochio's belly button. That's a picture for you! An early measure of velocity was a metal sheet with a heavy pendulum attached with some sort of measuring dial. As the bullet hit the top metal it would push the weighted pendulum and thusly you could measure with some consistency by reading in increments how far it pushed. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-20-2003, 04:14 PM	#8
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair: <strong>Geez Jack, Do you write stories for a living? Pinnochio's belly button. That's a picture for you!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I don't write them... I live them. Half of my life is spent with my children (6,4,3 years of age). The other half of my life is spent with 30,000 adults who act like children ("He crashed into my car on PURPOSE," and other such nonsense!). For three weeks a year, I get to teach 52 of the world's bravest policemen how to handle their sidearm. An outstanding bunch, but I suspect more than one took the short bus to school <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> . Sometimes I dispatch with eloquence to make my point... but they all leave my range better shooters than when they arrived. Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

05-20-2003, 04:16 PM	#9
Gene User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jack, Not to belabor a point, but momentum (mass times velocity) is always conserved, regardless of energy considerations. In a bullet, all of the energy is kinetic while in flight, but in the target, part of the energy is kinetic in moving the bovine with imbedded bullet, and part is utilized in deforming the bullet and bovine. Thus, energy transfer is variable, as you pointed out, but the momentum is not. Regards, Gene

05-20-2003, 05:06 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I believe the all time reference on this subject is known as "Hatcher's Notebook" by Julian S.Hatcher. Described by one of the sites selling it as: "For shooters, gunsmiths, ballisticians, historians, hunters, collectors...the personal reference notes and experience of more than fifty years as a small arms engineer, trophy-winning shooter, technical gun editor" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-20-2003, 05:31 PM	#11
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	The irony of this is that an Infantry Captain and a Medical Corps Major determined the development/direction/caliber/maker/ect of all military handguns for the next 100+ years based on a two day cow shooting spree and the swing of corpses hanging in a stockyard. Don't you know there were some interesting over dinner conversations made that night by the fence sitters watching the show? rk

05-20-2003, 06:11 PM	#12
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I did the ballistic pendulum thing for my classical physics project. (Fancy toting a revolver about campus today! I'm giving away my age!) The bullet in flight has a momentum equal to it's velocity times it's mass. On stopping in the target the momentum is conserved. Hence the target will move a distance corresponding to the bullet's momentum regardless of the bullet style, velocity, or what it strikes internally. More momentum is imparted to the shooter than to the target since for the shooter we must also account for the velocvity and mass of the propellent gas. It also explains why the concept of "knockdown" is utter nonsense. Energy is a different matter altogether. This is why firing a firearm doesn't ruin your health. Energy is proprtional to the square of the velocity, the firearm has only a small energy in recoil because it is moving so much slower. The bullet is moving fast, has a large energy, and must dump this energy in the target. This is where the bullet style becomes important. If the bullet is moving fast enough, is well placed, and dumps energy quickly enough, the shock effect will cause an animate traget to quickly collapse, hence the so called "knockdown effect". Attend any silhouette and see how difficult it is to knock over an inanimate target and you will soon agree that the "knockdown" effect is fictional. The stockyard tests were influential in the choice of the 45 ACP. Today we know the difference in stopping power between a 45 ACP and 9 mm hardball is statistically insignificant, apocryphal anecdotes notwithstanding. No hardball is a good stopper. The key to stopping power is high velocity and a good bullet design. Weight must play a poor third.

05-21-2003, 08:42 AM	#13
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Jack Lawman: Kind of like having two Louisville Sluggers shot at you (same mass and velocity).... one with standard butt end, other with a sharpened, vampire killing, spear point. If struck in the abdomen with the blunt bat, you would certainly end up on your butt. If struck with the spear point, much energy is spent on friction and tissue disruption, and you may be left standing with Pinnochio's belly button. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">"Nothing like telling a colorful story to illustrate an erroneous point," I always say. I did my physics homework last night and discovered that the conservation of momentum is one of the BASIC physics principles (I must have been distracted in Ms. Diaz's classroom that day). Thanks for the lesson. I now possess a clear understanding of the differences between momentum and energy. I'll be taking my seat in the back of the short bus and leaving the area now <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> . __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

05-21-2003, 10:37 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Jack.... Did you see me say a darn thing about moneto, moentm, force, no, cuz I's ain't educated in that thar stuff I listen, nod my head and say, "Oh that's nice..." Which reminds me of a joke, but John S., wouldn't approve... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-21-2003, 11:08 AM	#15
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Ed, I've been on a steep learning curve since that short bus dropped me off at the wrong school. Hopefully I'll catch up quick, level off, and get to wear the school sweater. Cheers to you too.... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

05-21-2003, 03:06 PM	#16
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Jack, had two kids here at high school last name of Budd. Both rode the little bus. Had one in ROTC that in 9 weeks never learned his right from left. One of them didn't show up for school one day and everyone was looking everywhere, ended up he got off at the wrong school, went on to class, teacher sent him to the office, he left school, Huntsville PD picked him up on a four lane in the afternoon. He was about fourteen. No idea of where he lived. We named him Budd light from then on. Probably made the bus driver sign for him every morning. rk

06-10-2003, 10:53 PM	#17
Jerry.B User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Arizona, USA Posts: 24 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So this is all interesting history and a bit of humor, but what's the bottom line: For use as a police firearm and/or for use as a personal defence gun - these would seem to be the same - it all comes down to can you kill or disable the attacker with one or 2 reasnbably placed shots at a realistic range - say 15-25 yards. Given this it seems that a 7.62 is ineffective, and a 9mm comes close to a .45, but - from the professionals - if I was to make a choice of gun to buy for the purpose - which one? __________________ JerryB, Arizona, USA

06-10-2003, 11:29 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,104 Times in 1,429 Posts	Jerry B, Buy a 1911 style .45. Fun to shoot, accurate and no BS about how hard it hits. Even if you are a poor shot, if you hit the perp will be hurt. If you are an excellent shot go for the .22 and a head shot. A lot depends on your personality. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-11-2003, 12:09 AM	#19
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Guys, Energy and momentum discussions can go on a long time. The above discussions have left off a few things. If a bullet hits a pendulum (or cadaver) and stops in the body--the initial momentum of the bullet equals the momentum of the body (and bullet) just after impact. If the bullet stays in the body the bullet mass is just added to the body mass. If the bullet passes through the body then the bullet velocity (after penetration) enters the picture. Similarly, there are a lot of energy terms to account for: initial bullet energy, final body and bullet energy, tissue and bullet damage, heat released, etc. etc. This can go on a long time, but the bullet that does the most damage is likely to be the most effective. 9 mm damage may approach .45 damage except in the case of the military which uses only full metal jacketed bullets. 9 mm FMJ bullets slide through flesh with a lot less damage than .45 FMJ bullets. Make mine a .45 (or .44). __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

06-11-2003, 06:31 AM	#20
sverre User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	<img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> so why the he** does almost every nation change into 5.56 why is this a better bullit than 7.62, other that you can carry more bullits. why go down in power? Sverre.