What's Wrong With This Portugese M2?

Doubs · 08-01-2003, 11:19 PM

While browsing for Lugers on GunBroker, I came across this ad: http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10727431

The owner of this 1906 Portugese M2 Luger describes it as original finish but a quick check of the reference books will show that the M2 was made with strawed small parts and all of the small parts on this one are blued. His asking price of $2,000 is about three times the actual value IMO. There were 5,000 made and they are not that difficult to find with original finish and at nearly half the price.

Just another example why the buyer needs to beware.

Thor · 08-02-2003, 12:03 AM

Chamber stamps looks like some of it is gone from polishing, safety should be in the white, you can see the area that should be white is just blued over. Small parts should be strawed. Friend Pete-"sorry about that!"

Pete Ebbink · 08-02-2003, 12:05 AM

Hello Walker,

There is not much left of the strike depth of the chamber markings as well.

It was either not struck deeply to begin with or too much metal was removed in the refinish...I vote for the later...

p.s.

Whoops ! Looks like Thor beat me to the punch...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

ViggoG · 08-02-2003, 01:35 AM

I seem to detect a difference in the stamps on the Take Down and the Side Plate, or am I seeing things?
And by the way whats that great big rough hole doing for that little tiny take down lever spring?
ViggoG

Doug G. · 08-02-2003, 02:55 AM

Boy they really stamped the M2 light on his "original" finish gun! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Shown on left is my 1906 M2.

Navy · 08-02-2003, 04:12 AM

Bogus.
Tom A.

Thor · 08-02-2003, 04:18 AM

I think this was originally a real gun, but the sanding grits,during a refinish, have cut the corners off the diamonds (rectangles turned side ways) on the top center of the crown. Any sharp edge will be slightly rounded by sanding grits and I think that is what happened to those. Those two pictures side to side are very revealing.

Doubs · 08-02-2003, 03:50 PM

Thanks to each of you for confirming my own thoughts on this Luger. I had noted the "worn" chamber stamping and it's nowhere nearly as deep as my own M2. My M2 is a 90% specimen purchased a few years back from a gentleman who had purchased it in the late 1960's when they were imported. It came with the holster, cleaning rod and pin punch..... a complete rig.

Jim Keenan · 08-06-2003, 04:34 AM

FWIW, I think the gun was a pitted, rusted relic, that was buffed down and reblued, then given an "exotic" chamber marking to attract big bucks. Look at the front of the extractor, for example, for bluing over rust.

The "M2" is hand engraved or pantographed (though a pretty good job as those things go). I don't think wear or buffing would change the angles of the horizontal lines or change the diamonds in the crown into circles.

Jim

Big Norm · 08-06-2003, 08:48 AM

I can't help but admire the great photography by P08 which was used for comparision. Nice work! I often see Lugers that seem to have a great deal of blue in the pictures. Is that my eyes or is that something to be careful about when taking a picture of Lugers?
Big Norm

Doug G. · 08-06-2003, 01:48 PM

Norm, it all has to do with good lighting. Then I use a photo program to correct the picture or enhance it if needs be. The last thing to do is wash out the picture before you post it on the web. For some reason the internet always makes pictures darker.
Doug

Big Norm · 08-06-2003, 05:39 PM

P08,
maybe the term 'washout' confuses me. When I looked at the original picture of this Luger, it looked too blue to tell if the strawing was good or not. Frankly, I could not tell if the parts were blued or if the photography was bad. But the picture that you posted, comparing the two chamber M2's was very good. Your picture of the original M2 that is on auction did not have that strong blue hue to it. I notice that this phenomenon occurs quite frequently on auctions.
Big Norm

08-01-2003, 11:19 PM	#1
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	What's Wrong With This Portugese M2? While browsing for Lugers on GunBroker, I came across this ad: http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10727431 The owner of this 1906 Portugese M2 Luger describes it as original finish but a quick check of the reference books will show that the M2 was made with strawed small parts and all of the small parts on this one are blued. His asking price of $2,000 is about three times the actual value IMO. There were 5,000 made and they are not that difficult to find with original finish and at nearly half the price. Just another example why the buyer needs to beware.

08-02-2003, 12:03 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Chamber stamps looks like some of it is gone from polishing, safety should be in the white, you can see the area that should be white is just blued over. Small parts should be strawed. Friend Pete-"sorry about that!" __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-02-2003, 02:55 AM	#5
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Boy they really stamped the M2 light on his "original" finish gun! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Shown on left is my 1906 M2. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

08-02-2003, 04:18 AM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I think this was originally a real gun, but the sanding grits,during a refinish, have cut the corners off the diamonds (rectangles turned side ways) on the top center of the crown. Any sharp edge will be slightly rounded by sanding grits and I think that is what happened to those. Those two pictures side to side are very revealing. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-06-2003, 01:48 PM	#11
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Norm, it all has to do with good lighting. Then I use a photo program to correct the picture or enhance it if needs be. The last thing to do is wash out the picture before you post it on the web. For some reason the internet always makes pictures darker. Doug __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

08-02-2003, 12:05 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Walker, There is not much left of the strike depth of the chamber markings as well. It was either not struck deeply to begin with or too much metal was removed in the refinish...I vote for the later... p.s. Whoops ! Looks like Thor beat me to the punch... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-02-2003, 01:35 AM	#4
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I seem to detect a difference in the stamps on the Take Down and the Side Plate, or am I seeing things? And by the way whats that great big rough hole doing for that little tiny take down lever spring? ViggoG

08-02-2003, 04:12 AM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Bogus. Tom A.

08-02-2003, 03:50 PM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	Thanks to each of you for confirming my own thoughts on this Luger. I had noted the "worn" chamber stamping and it's nowhere nearly as deep as my own M2. My M2 is a 90% specimen purchased a few years back from a gentleman who had purchased it in the late 1960's when they were imported. It came with the holster, cleaning rod and pin punch..... a complete rig.

08-06-2003, 04:34 AM	#9
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	FWIW, I think the gun was a pitted, rusted relic, that was buffed down and reblued, then given an "exotic" chamber marking to attract big bucks. Look at the front of the extractor, for example, for bluing over rust. The "M2" is hand engraved or pantographed (though a pretty good job as those things go). I don't think wear or buffing would change the angles of the horizontal lines or change the diamonds in the crown into circles. Jim

08-06-2003, 08:48 AM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I can't help but admire the great photography by P08 which was used for comparision. Nice work! I often see Lugers that seem to have a great deal of blue in the pictures. Is that my eyes or is that something to be careful about when taking a picture of Lugers? Big Norm

08-06-2003, 05:39 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	P08, maybe the term 'washout' confuses me. When I looked at the original picture of this Luger, it looked too blue to tell if the strawing was good or not. Frankly, I could not tell if the parts were blued or if the photography was bad. But the picture that you posted, comparing the two chamber M2's was very good. Your picture of the original M2 that is on auction did not have that strong blue hue to it. I notice that this phenomenon occurs quite frequently on auctions. Big Norm