US Test Luger Disposition Reference

[Hugo Borchardt]

Received and read the section on the Luger in "Handguns of the World", 1981, by Edward Ezell. He was the National Firearms Collection curator at the National Museum of American History, administered by the Smithsonium. Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago, but seems to be as credible a source as we might find, save actual documentation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Ezell

I found the second part of this paragraph interesting:

In 1906, the Ordnance Department recalled all the Lugers in the field and disposed of about 700 of them at public auction. Francis Bannerman, the military surplus dealer, purchased this lot of pistols from the army at $10.00 each, and over the next decade his company sold them at prices ranging from $18.45 to $19.85. Rock Island Arsenal-made holsters sold for ninety-five cents each. The remainder of the "American Eagle" Lugers were sold by the Ordnance Department during the summer of 1910. Letters sent out to prospective purchasers noted that the price of the pistols was set at $10.00 each FOB Springfield Armory and that "these pistols have been in the service, but were cleaned and repaired, and are now practically as good as new."

I am including this in my research project, which is being compiled at quite a snails pace.

Clark

[cirelaw]

Its amazing that some still survive. Thanks Clark for your devotion and keeping it alive,

[Ron Wood]

Clark,
I wish I was comfortable with RIA having pieces left over to dispose of after the Bannerman purchase, but I have my doubts. I suspect that the Ezell account is the result of careless editing and that the "...sold by the Ordnance Department during summer of 1910" and "disposed of about 700 of them at public auction" are one and the same (the Bannerman purchase was in the summer of 1910). The $10 purchase price quoted for both events would tend to underscore this. Auction prices for lots that large would tend to be well below individual sales, particularly since the pieces purchased by Bannerman supposedly were in workable condition or as the alleged sales promo stated "cleaned and repaired, and are now practically as good as new". In the works by Scott Meadows and Mike Reese, there was no mention of sales outside of the Bannerman purchase and those individuals did pretty comprehensive research for their writings.

[Hugo Borchardt]

Thanks, Ron. I differ to Reese and Meadows as well.

I hope to one day turn up some actual records to validate some of this information. I feel like we have a thousand piece puzzle with over 200 pieces missing.

Several items trouble me, including

- that the bulk of the serial numbers (748) in the Bannerman purchase, which I have still found no direct records of, are contiguous. After all, 50 in best condition were sent to Funke (btw I found record that Tauscher made him sole agent in 1904 for Luger in US and Canada) and it seems amazing that all 748 in a row would be present and accounted for in working order; I really want to see the records of the Bannerman purchase!

- that the lone Bannerman number In the 6200 range (#6289) and referenced in one of the original test reports was supposedly sold to Bannerman yet is reportedly in the Springfield Armory Museum; perhaps it just found its way back?

- that an extra 1000 exist without export marks; total around 2000 between 5978 and 7978; on hand by Tauscher for second order? Did Tauscher sneak them in? Was there a mystery second order by the Ordnance, or Navy, or Marines? Evidence shows Navy and Marines considered orders. Were the second thousand Mexican or Canadian and also obtained by Bannerman? I know some of these are far fetched ideas...

Occam's Razor suggests the answers to these questions and others might be simple, but it is enough to keep me digging and thinking! I just hope I'm not like those guys always trying to solve the location of the Beale treasure! I plan to travel and do some real research soon and hope to have something one day useful to contribute...

[cirelaw]

Clark, Is Bannerman still in existance in any form. Are any still being found. Do you know how many holsters have surfaced. I am very proud to own both! What is the second rarest luger holster?

[alanint]

The Francis Bannerman company ceased to exist sometime in the 1970s. The Hagley Museum has all the company records, which I imagine are familiar to all the advanced collectors on the board. You can contact the Museum and see if they may have documentation someone missed:

research@hagley.org

[cirelaw]

Great Ill give it a try! I just sent them our inquiry together with a picture of my test piece and holster. I wonder if our Smithsonian migh lend any help!

[alanint]

This may help with additional guidance:

http://www.hagley.lib.de.us/library/...ds/acc2185.pdf

[cirelaw]

I just wrote West Point which took receipt of at least 10 guns. I will check the Presidio in San Franciso wich also received a few!

[cirelaw]

I was contacted the Curator Of Arms, Les Jensen who wrote they have one of the pistols. I asked him for some more specific info ie serial # and holster. I will write the curator of each locale.

[Ron Wood]

I am on the road right now, going to visit the grandkids. I have photos of the West Point Test Luger and a bit of information about it. A member of the forum actually travelled to West Point and worked with Mr. Jensen to take the photos. It is in less than pristine condition and has not been in the collection the entire time since the test trials (I think it was acquired in the '20s as I recall). I will post specific details, including attribution to the gentleman that took the photos, Tues. or Wed. of next week.

[Hugo Borchardt]

Ron:

That would be most appreciated! Enjoy your visit with your grandkids!

Clark

[Edward Tinker]

Clark, I do not have all my books with me, and I have mentioned this before, but maybe not to you.

There is another quote much like the first one above of some Test Lugers sold, given as gifts etc, but I do not remember where I read it.

On my computer, I started a folder where I kept postings and info on Test Lugers when first fascinated by them.

I would expect, only by luck that ANY papers would remain; however, the following would be papers that would have been made at some point:

1. Into country shipping manifiests
2. Tauscher would have inventoried everything
3. The US Army would have inventoried, by number each gun when received
4. The Army would have inventoried each weapon being issued to each unit
5. Each unit would have acknowledged they received the weapon
6. Depot repair would have inventoried each weapon if sent in for repair
7. When all recalled they would have been inventoried and those weapons missing would have had to be paid for or logically given a reason why they were missing or destroyed
8. Complete inventory prior to sale of weapons
9. Bannerman would likely have inventoried by number and not just said, 732 lugers, even if they just accepted the army's inventory

Just from so many years, these luger records would have been destroyed, but there is always the chance some remain, stuck in some kind of archived file.

Ed