What is/was this Luger?

Hugh · 06-26-2002, 01:28 PM

No date, DWM, old style frame and reciever, stocklug, 3 7/8" 9mm bbl, grip safety, GESICHERT in lower position, coil mainspring, has holdopen.

The SN is 9088 with no letter, 88 on bottom of reciever "stop lug". Has mismatched toggle train & sideplate. The gun has an old refinish and the bbl blue is a little different from the rest of the gun, but has the same amount of wear. No SN on bbl, but has CN proof and bore stamp.

Looks like a 1904 ? Navy that has had the bbl and toggle replaced. Is this just a parts gun, or could this have been a postwar rebuild? I haven't seen very many 9mm bbls for the old long frame.

John Sabato · 06-26-2002, 01:57 PM

Hugh, I don't have a serial number reference, but I would have to side with your guess about it being a modified Navy 1904... I would suggest you place a post on the Navy forum and link it so they could follow it to here.

The Navy Forum Guru's Tom and Derek may have a few comments on the likelihood that it is an 04 Navy frame...

Lugerdoc · 06-26-2002, 02:38 PM

Your pistol is probably a 1920s rework of an unaltered (safety) M1906 Navy. Tom H.

Ron Wood · 06-26-2002, 02:54 PM

I think Tom is right. Might have been part of a multi-barreled set. Many years ago I knew an Army clerk who claimed his family had a cased set with three length barrels and a stock. I could never convince him to let me buy it. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Herb · 06-26-2002, 02:56 PM

Hugh, the only thing I could find was in Fred Datig's The Luger Book. He says that DWM serial numbers 1 to 2,000 and 5001 to 21,000 are those of the model 1900.

John Sabato · 06-27-2002, 02:17 PM

I don't think it could be a 1900 because it has a 1904 style stock lug... [img]confused.gif[/img]

Ron Wood · 06-27-2002, 03:31 PM

My rationale for thinking it is a reworked 1906 unaltered Navy (and I would think it is Tom's as well) is that the serial number and stock lug would place it in the '06 Navy range.

John Sabato · 06-27-2002, 03:57 PM

perhaps this excerpt from Gerard Henrotin's DWM Lugers E-book will pin this down this frame...

[quote]Naval Lugers (P04 & P06, 9mm para.)
Even though the German Military Board closely followed the Luger technical evolution, it was not until 1904 that the pistol was officially adopted as a service sidearm. By that year, the Marine Admiralty decided to order a specific version better suited to its requirements than the standard model. The pistol was henceforth known as the model P04 or Naval Luger.
It differs from the standard model by its barrel length (150 mm), the adaptation of a variable rear sight with a two-graduation scale (100 - 200 m) on the rear toggle link, and the presence of a stock lug to accommodate a specific detachable wood stock. This latter was made of a simple wood board, provided with four slots to let leather straps pass through to fasten a holster. A specific metal disk was screwed on the middle left face of the board and sometimes unit markings were struck onto it.
The frame was of long type and the main spring was the old flat one. The breechblock was a new model with a three-piece extractor marked on the left side with the word "GELADEN" (loaded). The toggle knobs were checkered at right angles. The wooden magazine bottom was designed with concentric moldings.
The first order of the Imperial German Admiralty "Reichs-Marine-Amt" was placed on December 12, 1904. The order was for 8,000, 1904 Lugers, and they were to be delivered by the DWM in the fiscal years 1905/06. When no deliveries had been made by January 17, 1906, the "Reichs-Marine-Amt" gave the DWM delivery deadlines for 2,500 pistols until end of March 1906, for 2,400 in April, and for 3,100 by the end of May 1906. These pistols had of the lastest technical improvements, such as a new long frame equipped with a coil main spring, a breechblock fitted with the new extractor and no toggle safety. The old fat straight barrel was replaced by a tapered one. A second batch of 8,000 pistols was ordered on fiscal year 1906 (ending on March 31, 1907)

- Source : J. GÃ?Â¶rtz.
<hr></blockquote>

Stock Lug, Coil mainspring, Long Frame, No Toggle Safety, Serial number in the 9XXX range? looks like that = P06 Frame to me based on this information...and probably reworked for the holdopen and short barrel post war...

Lugerdoc · 06-28-2002, 09:07 AM

Also if this were a 1904 Navy frame, it would have provisions for a toggle lock on the right side. Many collectors call all Navys P04s, but to be more percise, they should be amplified as P04/06, 08 or 14 to let you know the exact configuration.

06-26-2002, 01:28 PM	#1
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	What is/was this Luger? No date, DWM, old style frame and reciever, stocklug, 3 7/8" 9mm bbl, grip safety, GESICHERT in lower position, coil mainspring, has holdopen. The SN is 9088 with no letter, 88 on bottom of reciever "stop lug". Has mismatched toggle train & sideplate. The gun has an old refinish and the bbl blue is a little different from the rest of the gun, but has the same amount of wear. No SN on bbl, but has CN proof and bore stamp. Looks like a 1904 ? Navy that has had the bbl and toggle replaced. Is this just a parts gun, or could this have been a postwar rebuild? I haven't seen very many 9mm bbls for the old long frame. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

06-26-2002, 01:57 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hugh, I don't have a serial number reference, but I would have to side with your guess about it being a modified Navy 1904... I would suggest you place a post on the Navy forum and link it so they could follow it to here. The Navy Forum Guru's Tom and Derek may have a few comments on the likelihood that it is an 04 Navy frame... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-26-2002, 02:38 PM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Your pistol is probably a 1920s rework of an unaltered (safety) M1906 Navy. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

06-26-2002, 02:54 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I think Tom is right. Might have been part of a multi-barreled set. Many years ago I knew an Army clerk who claimed his family had a cased set with three length barrels and a stock. I could never convince him to let me buy it. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-26-2002, 02:56 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hugh, the only thing I could find was in Fred Datig's The Luger Book. He says that DWM serial numbers 1 to 2,000 and 5001 to 21,000 are those of the model 1900. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-27-2002, 02:17 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I don't think it could be a 1900 because it has a 1904 style stock lug... [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-27-2002, 03:31 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	My rationale for thinking it is a reworked 1906 unaltered Navy (and I would think it is Tom's as well) is that the serial number and stock lug would place it in the '06 Navy range. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-27-2002, 03:57 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	perhaps this excerpt from Gerard Henrotin's DWM Lugers E-book will pin this down this frame... [quote]Naval Lugers (P04 & P06, 9mm para.) Even though the German Military Board closely followed the Luger technical evolution, it was not until 1904 that the pistol was officially adopted as a service sidearm. By that year, the Marine Admiralty decided to order a specific version better suited to its requirements than the standard model. The pistol was henceforth known as the model P04 or Naval Luger. It differs from the standard model by its barrel length (150 mm), the adaptation of a variable rear sight with a two-graduation scale (100 - 200 m) on the rear toggle link, and the presence of a stock lug to accommodate a specific detachable wood stock. This latter was made of a simple wood board, provided with four slots to let leather straps pass through to fasten a holster. A specific metal disk was screwed on the middle left face of the board and sometimes unit markings were struck onto it. The frame was of long type and the main spring was the old flat one. The breechblock was a new model with a three-piece extractor marked on the left side with the word "GELADEN" (loaded). The toggle knobs were checkered at right angles. The wooden magazine bottom was designed with concentric moldings. The first order of the Imperial German Admiralty "Reichs-Marine-Amt" was placed on December 12, 1904. The order was for 8,000, 1904 Lugers, and they were to be delivered by the DWM in the fiscal years 1905/06. When no deliveries had been made by January 17, 1906, the "Reichs-Marine-Amt" gave the DWM delivery deadlines for 2,500 pistols until end of March 1906, for 2,400 in April, and for 3,100 by the end of May 1906. These pistols had of the lastest technical improvements, such as a new long frame equipped with a coil main spring, a breechblock fitted with the new extractor and no toggle safety. The old fat straight barrel was replaced by a tapered one. A second batch of 8,000 pistols was ordered on fiscal year 1906 (ending on March 31, 1907) - Source : J. GÃ?Â¶rtz. <hr></blockquote> Stock Lug, Coil mainspring, Long Frame, No Toggle Safety, Serial number in the 9XXX range? looks like that = P06 Frame to me based on this information...and probably reworked for the holdopen and short barrel post war... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-28-2002, 09:07 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Also if this were a 1904 Navy frame, it would have provisions for a toggle lock on the right side. Many collectors call all Navys P04s, but to be more percise, they should be amplified as P04/06, 08 or 14 to let you know the exact configuration. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net