Number Of Lugers in .45 Cal. ??? - Page 2

Mike Jones · 06-11-2002, 02:59 PM

OPPS....After I got to the shop this AM I pulled the letter from the collector, He claimed he found SN 5 NOT SN 4 as I stated in my earlier post.

Mike

John Sabato · 06-11-2002, 03:36 PM

Michael (mrj833) If you still have contact with this collector's heirs, is it possible that photographs of this gun #5 are available?

Could they possibly confirm it's existence? or reveal where it may be examined?

Just hoping <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Mike Jones · 06-11-2002, 04:16 PM

John

The photos the collector sent claiming to be SN 5, were in fact photos of the un-numbered Norton gun.

Thanks,
Mike

Edward Tinker · 06-11-2002, 04:32 PM

Ahhh, but interesting thread.

Must have been interesting and fun to shoot a 150 rounds off!

As someone said a while back, with the "value" of the gun now, it would be hard to shoot that gun now!

In the 45 Caliber article on the Mike Krauses website this quote [quote] ...Unfortunately, there is only one original .45 Luger extant. It was gun number two in the Army trials, gun number one having probably been broken down and discarded after the testing.

You may remember, about three years ago, we were given the rare privilege of firing gun number two, of which Charles Kenyon Jr. in his Lugers at Random said, "The rarity and historical importance of this pistol makes it literally priceless.
<hr></blockquote> from the Guns & Ammo Magazine, March 1998, By Garry James.

So they fired one of the .45's also.

Very interesting thread indeed.

[img]cool.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 06-11-2002, 07:21 PM

Does anyone have a copy of the original article on the .45 Luger that appeared in G&A in 1995? I was wondering if there was a picture showing the serial number placement. I notice that in the above quote the pistols were referred to as gun number one and gun number two rather than by serial number. The confirmation that the Norton Luger is un-serial numbered raises this question.

crgkstnr · 06-11-2002, 08:37 PM

Johnny
In June of 1994 Garry James wrote "We shoot the million$$ Luger" in Guns & Ammo. James states there were 2 .45 autos sent for trials.

He then states; "Both autos were made under the personal supervision of Herr Luger and were stamped on the rear of their toggles with the initials "GL". Otherwise they were unmarked."

There is a page sized photo of the front and left side with no serial number to be seen on the frame front, or any other stamp on the pistol. The GL marked toggle is shown in another photo.

James and the guns new owner Michael Zomber fired one mag full determining it shot 6ins. high. At 25 yards from the bench James fired 4 shots in an 1.5 inches group and pulled the 5th opening the group to 2.75inches.

Craig

Johnny Peppers · 06-11-2002, 08:55 PM

Craig,
Thanks for the reply. If I only missed by a year I am doing pretty good. I remember reading the article and thought I had the magazine, but must have been lost or discarded in my move.
When the article came out I wrote Garry James at G&A to make him aware of the second .45 Luger in Shreveport, but got no reply. I thought that maybe the PO Dept. just lost the letter so I wrote him again. Same results. Being a little on the stubborn side, I wrote him a third time just for the hell of it. Same results. I guess if you write an article on a pistol that proclaims to be the only one in existence, you don't want to acknowledge that there are twice as many as your article indicated.

Edward Tinker · 06-11-2002, 10:08 PM

Very interesting Johnny and Craig.

I'd change the date on the information I put above, but that is what was on the web site and since i quoted them, I'll leave it, [img]confused.gif[/img]

Johnny Peppers · 06-11-2002, 10:14 PM

Ed,
The date you have is probably correct, but was probably the article on the Krause .45.

Orv Reichert · 06-19-2002, 02:33 PM

Mr. Jones....I would certainly appreciate your posting any and all info you could supply from your dad's records about these .45 cal. pistols and carbines!

Orv Reichert

06-11-2002, 03:36 PM	#22
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Michael (mrj833) If you still have contact with this collector's heirs, is it possible that photographs of this gun #5 are available? Could they possibly confirm it's existence? or reveal where it may be examined? Just hoping <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-11-2002, 04:32 PM	#24
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Ahhh, but interesting thread. Must have been interesting and fun to shoot a 150 rounds off! As someone said a while back, with the "value" of the gun now, it would be hard to shoot that gun now! In the 45 Caliber article on the Mike Krauses website this quote [quote] ...Unfortunately, there is only one original .45 Luger extant. It was gun number two in the Army trials, gun number one having probably been broken down and discarded after the testing. You may remember, about three years ago, we were given the rare privilege of firing gun number two, of which Charles Kenyon Jr. in his Lugers at Random said, "The rarity and historical importance of this pistol makes it literally priceless. <hr></blockquote> from the Guns & Ammo Magazine, March 1998, By Garry James. So they fired one of the .45's also. Very interesting thread indeed. [img]cool.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-11-2002, 10:08 PM	#28
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Very interesting Johnny and Craig. I'd change the date on the information I put above, but that is what was on the web site and since i quoted them, I'll leave it, [img]confused.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-19-2002, 02:33 PM	#30
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mr. Jones....I would certainly appreciate your posting any and all info you could supply from your dad's records about these .45 cal. pistols and carbines! Orv Reichert __________________ ORVEL L. "ORV" REICHERT

06-11-2002, 02:59 PM	#21
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	OPPS....After I got to the shop this AM I pulled the letter from the collector, He claimed he found SN 5 NOT SN 4 as I stated in my earlier post. Mike

06-11-2002, 04:16 PM	#23
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	John The photos the collector sent claiming to be SN 5, were in fact photos of the un-numbered Norton gun. Thanks, Mike

06-11-2002, 07:21 PM	#25
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Does anyone have a copy of the original article on the .45 Luger that appeared in G&A in 1995? I was wondering if there was a picture showing the serial number placement. I notice that in the above quote the pistols were referred to as gun number one and gun number two rather than by serial number. The confirmation that the Norton Luger is un-serial numbered raises this question.

06-11-2002, 08:37 PM	#26
crgkstnr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Johnny In June of 1994 Garry James wrote "We shoot the million$$ Luger" in Guns & Ammo. James states there were 2 .45 autos sent for trials. He then states; "Both autos were made under the personal supervision of Herr Luger and were stamped on the rear of their toggles with the initials "GL". Otherwise they were unmarked." There is a page sized photo of the front and left side with no serial number to be seen on the frame front, or any other stamp on the pistol. The GL marked toggle is shown in another photo. James and the guns new owner Michael Zomber fired one mag full determining it shot 6ins. high. At 25 yards from the bench James fired 4 shots in an 1.5 inches group and pulled the 5th opening the group to 2.75inches. Craig

06-11-2002, 08:55 PM	#27
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Craig, Thanks for the reply. If I only missed by a year I am doing pretty good. I remember reading the article and thought I had the magazine, but must have been lost or discarded in my move. When the article came out I wrote Garry James at G&A to make him aware of the second .45 Luger in Shreveport, but got no reply. I thought that maybe the PO Dept. just lost the letter so I wrote him again. Same results. Being a little on the stubborn side, I wrote him a third time just for the hell of it. Same results. I guess if you write an article on a pistol that proclaims to be the only one in existence, you don't want to acknowledge that there are twice as many as your article indicated.

06-11-2002, 10:14 PM	#29
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ed, The date you have is probably correct, but was probably the article on the Krause .45.