Two Date Navy

Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 06:35 PM

I have a 1914 two date navy 1920 over 1917 the gun is marked in the military manner (For a navy).IThe serial # is (4895a) it is stamped Germany,everything about the gun is in military fasihon except the stamp Germany.Any insight would be most helpful,Thanks

Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 06:39 PM

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Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 07:07 PM

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Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 07:08 PM

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Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 07:09 PM

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Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 07:10 PM

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Tim Reynolds · 04-01-2007, 07:11 PM

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Big Norm · 04-01-2007, 07:22 PM

Tim,
in my humble opinion, it is still a navy. The 'GERMANY' stamp just means that it was imported into the USA and does not deminish it value. The double stamp just means that the Wiemar government inspected the gun after the war. There is an implication that certain parts may have been replaced for various reasons. However, if all the numbers match, then probably nothing was done to the gun that would affect its value. According to the WW1 treaty, the barrel should have been shortened to, I think, less that 4 inches. Given the condition of the rest of the gun, if the bore is too minty or the barrels finish is too good, then the barrel has been replaced. That would affect the price. If the barrel finish, the serial numbers on the bottom of the barrel and the bore look appropriate, then you might have an exception to the treaty. With that said, the value of anything is only what someone else is willing to pay for that item.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 04-01-2007, 07:55 PM

Tim,

I would venture a guess that yours is probably a $ 3000 Navy luger.

Looks like the barrel still has the little "1917" date on the left side of the front sight base...so probably original to the gun.

It was property stamped with "1920" at the beginning of the Weimar period but no other visible ToV modifications.

"Germany" for some collectors may beat down price/value a tad...other Navy folks do not seem to care much.

George Anderson · 04-01-2007, 09:57 PM

I believe that this pistol provides a very interesting foot note to the Weimar era. It's a Navy pistol that was "turned-in" and therefore property marked with the "1920". Subsequently it was put into the export market because it was felt to be surplus or not needed within the new Reichsmarine/Reichswehr system. It was designated for surplus sales, not because of barrel length but, because of real need.

Given the tiny size of the Reichsmarine, there was no need for this pistol and many, many thousands more. With outrageous war reparations to pay it did its final service to the Fatherland by helping to pay down the onerous debt the Germans were saddled with by the allies.

I think it would be very interesting to know the actual path these many surplus guns flowed through in Germany before ending up on the international market. Was DWM a major part of the export chain or were there many small entrepreneurial concerns who bought military wares to export?

hqbmw · 04-02-2007, 12:13 AM

I agree with George on this subject. I think all the firearms that made it past the very few dictated by the Treaty of Versailles have an enormous provenance to tell. Indeed, the history of such guns with or without Double Dates is intriging. Double date guns seem to have a stigmatism attached that appears to keep their values lower, but I think when one looks at the historical significance of ANY gun that was left alive after the Treaty, we should be in awe.

Jack Hiles
Mesa AZ

Luke · 04-02-2007, 06:24 AM

My 1917 Navy also has the "GERMANY" stamp, but in a different location. It is underneath the barrel. Also note that a different die was used for my marking.

Was there no consistency in the location of the "GERMANY" export markings?

See picture below. Also, my gun does not have the 1920 date stamp over the chamber.

The apparent flat area on the bottom of the barrel is not real; it is an artifact of the image process when created by a flatbed scanner rather than a digital camera.

Luke

drbuster · 04-02-2007, 10:34 AM

Luke, my 1917 Navy is export marked exactly the same as yours!

Big Norm · 04-02-2007, 12:11 PM

As an interesting side note to this discussion, in the long term, I don't think that British proof marks will eventually hurt the price of a Luger much. If all else is good, then the guns price should pretty much be close to an unmarked Luger. Maybe not the same, but close.
Big Norm

Luke · 04-02-2007, 12:29 PM

drbuster -

Thank you for the comment. I have wondered ever since I bought this Navy.

I bought it from FGS (Doug Smith) only after I spent an hour on the phone with Doug discussing the gun. He told me that he had knowledge of this Luger in that he had sold it to a collector many years ago, and that collector had recently traded it back on a 1908 Navy. I am about as certain of this Navy as any I have seen, but always wondered about the "GERMANY" marking on the barrel.

Big Norm -

Your observations about British proof marks and the "GERMANY" export mark and their relation to price help to confirm my belief when I bought this Navy. The gun was so good, otherwise, that I was pretty confident that the export mark would not have much effect on its value in the long run.

Regards,
Luke

Big Norm · 04-02-2007, 12:30 PM

Tim,
after looking at the picture of the front sight, I would assume that the condition of the gun is rather pitted. It isn't uncommon to see the front of the barrel pitted, but yours looks like the pitting might go beyond the front of the barrel. While I would agree with Pete that the gun would go for "about" $3000, all would depend on who is buying the gun. There are a lot of prime navy Lugers w/matching mags out there and yours isn't prime. Still, check all the serial marked parts to make sure that all numbers match. Also check the bore to see what its condition is. A bad bore can affect the price too. It is a crazy market out there and anything is possible right now.
Big Norm

Tim Reynolds · 04-02-2007, 01:51 PM

The sight area is the worse.The finish on the gun is not the greatest.After reading about all the messing around with on these guns I am just glad that it is an original.The condition of the gun helped this novice.The parts all looked like they were in the same codition.So the parts matched finish wise and number wise. It would be easy too get taken looking at a gun with all the numbers match,but the blueing was not quite right on the barrel,frame ,etc just to find out the numbers,proof,parts ect have been made and put on the gun to decieve.If I had known what I know now I would not have bought it.I rolled a seven on the come out roll. Ignorance can indeed be bliss.P.S.I also like how the gun has had three lives War,Post war ToV ,Commercial (import USA).Thanks for all the help from everyone,Tim

Big Norm · 04-04-2007, 01:42 PM

Tim,
sometimes, its a matter of price. There are a lot of very nice navy Lugers out there, but guys are sitting on them for a number of reasons. FGS has a lot of good Lugers of all kinds, but his prices are up there. Him and Simpson are the price setters in the Luger world. The internet challenges but is not as good because you are dealing with an unknown seller. With Doug Smith and Simpson, you can go to the guns shows and physically examine the guns. The draw back from buying a gun at a gun show is that you are tired from the long drive to many of the shows, the lighting often makes it hard to tell an expertly restored gun from an original, many gun dealers won't let you take a Luger apart to check the numbers and so on and so forth. Then there is the emotional thing. The buyer wants the gun.

Personally, I think that every collector has been burned at one time or the other. There are things to do that will help like, seeking a second opinion from someone that you trust. Patience is also good but sometimes hard to practice. This forum and Jan Stills forum is good too. It takes time to really know your subject, be it Lugers or any other collecting. Sometimes just talking it up with other Luger people helps. I'm good at talking so I am going to close this discussion for now. Good luck and happy hunting.
Big Norm

04-01-2007, 06:35 PM	#1
Tim Reynolds User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Two Date Navy I have a 1914 two date navy 1920 over 1917 the gun is marked in the military manner (For a navy).IThe serial # is (4895a) it is stamped Germany,everything about the gun is in military fasihon except the stamp Germany.Any insight would be most helpful,Thanks Attached Images

04-01-2007, 06:39 PM	#2
Tim Reynolds User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	2 Attached Images

04-01-2007, 07:07 PM	#3
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04-01-2007, 07:11 PM	#7
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04-01-2007, 07:22 PM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tim, in my humble opinion, it is still a navy. The 'GERMANY' stamp just means that it was imported into the USA and does not deminish it value. The double stamp just means that the Wiemar government inspected the gun after the war. There is an implication that certain parts may have been replaced for various reasons. However, if all the numbers match, then probably nothing was done to the gun that would affect its value. According to the WW1 treaty, the barrel should have been shortened to, I think, less that 4 inches. Given the condition of the rest of the gun, if the bore is too minty or the barrels finish is too good, then the barrel has been replaced. That would affect the price. If the barrel finish, the serial numbers on the bottom of the barrel and the bore look appropriate, then you might have an exception to the treaty. With that said, the value of anything is only what someone else is willing to pay for that item. Big Norm

04-01-2007, 07:55 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Tim, I would venture a guess that yours is probably a $ 3000 Navy luger. Looks like the barrel still has the little "1917" date on the left side of the front sight base...so probably original to the gun. It was property stamped with "1920" at the beginning of the Weimar period but no other visible ToV modifications. "Germany" for some collectors may beat down price/value a tad...other Navy folks do not seem to care much.

04-01-2007, 09:57 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I believe that this pistol provides a very interesting foot note to the Weimar era. It's a Navy pistol that was "turned-in" and therefore property marked with the "1920". Subsequently it was put into the export market because it was felt to be surplus or not needed within the new Reichsmarine/Reichswehr system. It was designated for surplus sales, not because of barrel length but, because of real need. Given the tiny size of the Reichsmarine, there was no need for this pistol and many, many thousands more. With outrageous war reparations to pay it did its final service to the Fatherland by helping to pay down the onerous debt the Germans were saddled with by the allies. I think it would be very interesting to know the actual path these many surplus guns flowed through in Germany before ending up on the international market. Was DWM a major part of the export chain or were there many small entrepreneurial concerns who bought military wares to export?

04-02-2007, 12:13 AM	#11
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with George on this subject. I think all the firearms that made it past the very few dictated by the Treaty of Versailles have an enormous provenance to tell. Indeed, the history of such guns with or without Double Dates is intriging. Double date guns seem to have a stigmatism attached that appears to keep their values lower, but I think when one looks at the historical significance of ANY gun that was left alive after the Treaty, we should be in awe. Jack Hiles Mesa AZ __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

04-02-2007, 06:24 AM	#12
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	My 1917 Navy also has the "GERMANY" stamp, but in a different location. It is underneath the barrel. Also note that a different die was used for my marking. Was there no consistency in the location of the "GERMANY" export markings? See picture below. Also, my gun does not have the 1920 date stamp over the chamber. The apparent flat area on the bottom of the barrel is not real; it is an artifact of the image process when created by a flatbed scanner rather than a digital camera. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

04-02-2007, 10:34 AM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Luke, my 1917 Navy is export marked exactly the same as yours!

04-02-2007, 12:11 PM	#14
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	As an interesting side note to this discussion, in the long term, I don't think that British proof marks will eventually hurt the price of a Luger much. If all else is good, then the guns price should pretty much be close to an unmarked Luger. Maybe not the same, but close. Big Norm

04-02-2007, 12:29 PM	#15
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	drbuster - Thank you for the comment. I have wondered ever since I bought this Navy. I bought it from FGS (Doug Smith) only after I spent an hour on the phone with Doug discussing the gun. He told me that he had knowledge of this Luger in that he had sold it to a collector many years ago, and that collector had recently traded it back on a 1908 Navy. I am about as certain of this Navy as any I have seen, but always wondered about the "GERMANY" marking on the barrel. Big Norm - Your observations about British proof marks and the "GERMANY" export mark and their relation to price help to confirm my belief when I bought this Navy. The gun was so good, otherwise, that I was pretty confident that the export mark would not have much effect on its value in the long run. Regards, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

04-02-2007, 12:30 PM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tim, after looking at the picture of the front sight, I would assume that the condition of the gun is rather pitted. It isn't uncommon to see the front of the barrel pitted, but yours looks like the pitting might go beyond the front of the barrel. While I would agree with Pete that the gun would go for "about" $3000, all would depend on who is buying the gun. There are a lot of prime navy Lugers w/matching mags out there and yours isn't prime. Still, check all the serial marked parts to make sure that all numbers match. Also check the bore to see what its condition is. A bad bore can affect the price too. It is a crazy market out there and anything is possible right now. Big Norm

04-02-2007, 01:51 PM	#17
Tim Reynolds User Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The sight area is the worse.The finish on the gun is not the greatest.After reading about all the messing around with on these guns I am just glad that it is an original.The condition of the gun helped this novice.The parts all looked like they were in the same codition.So the parts matched finish wise and number wise. It would be easy too get taken looking at a gun with all the numbers match,but the blueing was not quite right on the barrel,frame ,etc just to find out the numbers,proof,parts ect have been made and put on the gun to decieve.If I had known what I know now I would not have bought it.I rolled a seven on the come out roll. Ignorance can indeed be bliss.P.S.I also like how the gun has had three lives War,Post war ToV ,Commercial (import USA).Thanks for all the help from everyone,Tim __________________ If the magazine does not match,it is a mismatched Luger

04-04-2007, 01:42 PM	#18
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Tim, sometimes, its a matter of price. There are a lot of very nice navy Lugers out there, but guys are sitting on them for a number of reasons. FGS has a lot of good Lugers of all kinds, but his prices are up there. Him and Simpson are the price setters in the Luger world. The internet challenges but is not as good because you are dealing with an unknown seller. With Doug Smith and Simpson, you can go to the guns shows and physically examine the guns. The draw back from buying a gun at a gun show is that you are tired from the long drive to many of the shows, the lighting often makes it hard to tell an expertly restored gun from an original, many gun dealers won't let you take a Luger apart to check the numbers and so on and so forth. Then there is the emotional thing. The buyer wants the gun. Personally, I think that every collector has been burned at one time or the other. There are things to do that will help like, seeking a second opinion from someone that you trust. Patience is also good but sometimes hard to practice. This forum and Jan Stills forum is good too. It takes time to really know your subject, be it Lugers or any other collecting. Sometimes just talking it up with other Luger people helps. I'm good at talking so I am going to close this discussion for now. Good luck and happy hunting. Big Norm