7.63 Mauser (C96)

Jack Owens · 06-24-2002, 02:33 AM

Dear Friends,

I have a couple of Broomhandles (C96 Mausers for complete novices) but am running into problems in getting 7.63mm ammunition for them. I've had some Fiocchi on order from Graf & Sons, Inc. for a couple of months now but nothing comes through.

Does anyone know of any dependable sources?

Regards,
Jack

unspellable · 06-24-2002, 08:07 AM

Haunt the gun shows. I used to use Remington 7.63 Mauser, there might be some around. Fioccchi loads it, but they run a batch once every so often which probably explains why you can't get it just now by ordering. There will be dealers here and there with it on the shelf. Hansen or somebody loads it here in the US the last time I looked.

S&B and Winchester load the 7.62 Tokarev which will work in a C96 if they chamber OK. I bought some of the Winchester stuff recently at a good price for one of the less common calibers. You can get Chinese 7.62 Tokarev in non-reloadable cases. I don't view the Chinese stuff as the best quality.

I avoid the military surplus stuff. There is a rumour that S&B loaded some military (not civilian) stuff that was a bit hotter than you really want. And there's always the problem of corrosive primers.

Before you shoot it check the condition of the corners on the locking lugs. They tend to get rounded off with a lot of milage and need to be squared up again. I've had at least one with a weak recoil spring too, but I don't now of any quick and easy way to tell you how to check it.

unspellable

Dwight Gruber · 06-24-2002, 09:46 AM

[quote]Originally posted by unspellable:
<strong>
Before you shoot it check the condition of the corners on the locking lugs. They tend to get rounded off with a lot of milage and need to be squared up again. I've had at least one with a weak recoil spring too, but I don't now of any quick and easy way to tell you how to check it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Others on this forum, with perhaps more authority than I, will recommend that you have the guns thoroughly checked by a competent gunsmith who knows Broomhandles to make sure they are safe to shoot. Of particular concern is the bolt-stop lug and the condition of the barrel extension rails. Failure of the bolt stop can lead to the bolt being completely ejected from the gun, with potentially fatal consequences.

Some shooters here simply replace the bolt stop with one of modern manufacture when they go shooting. I expect that one of them will likely step in here and tell you where they can be obtained.

30 years ago I had a friend who had a Broomhandle, I think it was a Bolo, and we took it out to shoot a couple of times. I recall it being a lot of fun, wish I had one now.

--Dwight

Lonnie Zimmerman · 06-24-2002, 09:51 PM

Jack; I load my own, but it seems like there has been some Norinco for sale in the Shotgun News as of late. I have a lot of it, and it shoots very well.
Lonnie

Herb · 06-24-2002, 11:19 PM

Jack, avoid at all costs the Russian ammo that is available, I bought some that was advertised as C96 ammo. Three rounds and the bolt blew in half, luckily no one was hurt. I later found that it was SMG ammo and way too hot for the C96. Stick with a known manufacturer.

Steve Richards · 06-25-2002, 02:12 AM

Tom Heller has springs and I think bolt stops. He is listed on the Links & Resources of the Lugerforum.com homepage. I bought a broomhandle from him and he has (or at least had) ammo. Wolf springs also has spring sets. If the recoil and firing pin springs are shorter than the parts they slide over replace them!

I bought loading dies from Lee and use 6.0gr Unique and a Sierra 85gr #8005 soft round nose and everything seems to work fine. I bought the brass from Starline.

With all that I have read about Tokarev/Mauser ammo, I do not trust what I can buy!

Steve Richards

Jack Owens · 06-25-2002, 03:03 PM

Dear Herb,

I'm curious about specifically what occurred when "the bolt blew in half" after the three rounds of Russian ammo you mention.

The bolt-stop of the C96 is actually composed of a) the recoil-spring-stop and b) the actual bolt-stop. Although I've never had any actual problems with a bolt-stop myself, a C96 that I just bought has the lower part of the recoil-spring-stop broken off, and close examination of the recoil-spring stop on my other C96 showed a fine crack in it; but the actual bolt-stop itself is a pretty substantial piece of metal, and to shear it off, permitting the bolt to exit the barrel extension, would seem to be unusual.

What actually happened when you experienced "the bolt blew in half"? Did the bolt and sheared-off bolt-stop actually exit and fly back at you?

Regards,
Jack

Herb · 06-25-2002, 03:14 PM

Jack, the bolt did not exit the rear of the reciever, it broke in two about 1/4" behind the extractor with the front portion flying into the air along with the ejected casing. Looking at the broken edges it would appear that there is a possibility that the steel crystalized at that point. The bolt is (was) in really good condition appearing nearly new with the exception of slight blueing wear on the moving surfaces.

Dwight Gruber · 06-25-2002, 08:49 PM

My understanding of the posts which have invoked catastrophic breakage of the (substantial) bolt stop, is that cracking from the considerable impact of the bolt recoil and metal crystallization can be involved.

--Dwight

Roadkill · 06-26-2002, 09:15 PM

Send me an email tomorrow, I'll be at work & can call a local gunshop. They are usually very well stocked on all types of ammo. Question. I always thought that 7.62 Russ surplus & Chinese stuff was too powerful for BHs?

RK

Jack Owens · 06-27-2002, 05:10 AM

Dear Randall,

I tried to send you a private post but got this message:

An error has occured: Unable to connect to the SMTP server. The following error was returned: Connection refused. The server either does not exist, or rejected the connection. Please ensure that the UBB is allowed to relay mail through the server.

Is this a matter for John S?

Regards,
Jack

Please inform the board administration of this error so that they may fix the problem. Thank you!

Roadkill · 06-27-2002, 06:58 AM

No clue what's goin on. I'll check today & post later.

RK

arjen · 06-27-2002, 08:28 PM

I found the Fiocchi pretty easy to find . The shop got it in a couple of weeks after I inquired about it . It was the burgundy box , made in Italy . It wasn't inexpensive , but still reasonable considering hardly anyone else makes it( $ 32.95 CAD for a box of 50 to be exact ).

It seems reliable - a couple boxes so far - no duds .

Maybe try another retailer , they might be more helpful .

Lonnie Zimmerman · 06-28-2002, 12:04 AM

I bought 2 broomhandles from Jim at Mentor Arms a couple of years ago and he used Norinco to test every one of them. I bought a case of 2,260 rounds for next to nothing. I still see it in the Shotgun News once in awhile.
Lonnie

Jack Owens · 06-28-2002, 03:52 AM

I haven't found it in the latest "Shotgun News", Lonnie. Do you know the name of the company that carries it? Maybe I can give them a call.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 06-29-2002, 12:30 AM

Jack; I will start looking for it and will get back to you when I find some.
Lonnie

Lonnie Zimmerman · 06-29-2002, 12:52 AM

Jack; I did a Google search and an outfit called lockstock&barrel has it advertised at (GASP) $600 for 2500 rounds. If you live around Oregon I will give you some of mine.
Lonnie

Jack Owens · 06-29-2002, 03:26 AM

Thanks, Lonnie. Next time I get up to Oregon I'll drop by.

Doubs · 06-30-2002, 11:05 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Rick W.:
<strong>I see that Starline Brass and Graf & Sons has listings for the 30 Mauser brass. Whether they have it in stock or not, one would have to inquire.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Starline also offers the 7.62 Tokarev cases. They are identical in every way to the 7.63 Mauser cases except for the headstamp on the case. Starline brass is very good, speaking from my own experiences with it. They do have an on-line site that you can easily find by using a search engine.

Kyrie · 06-30-2002, 04:07 PM

Hi Jack!

Be a little careful of the ChiCom 7.62x25.

Jim Oehlenschlager at Mentor Arms did employ the ChiCom 7.62x25 to test fire the C96Ã¢??s heÃ¢??d worked on, and recommended its use in the C96Ã¢??s heÃ¢??d worked over. But he discontinued both his use of ChiCom ammunition and his recommendation for its use when he started to get C96Ã¢??s damaged by this ammunition.

The problem here, in my opinion, is the Chinese got sloppy with the 7.62x25 ammunition they sold for export to the US. Back in the late 1980Ã¢??s when the Chinese first began exporting 7.62x25 to the US the ammo they sold to us was drawn from military stocks and was quite good stuff. But the demand was so great they seem to have begun making this ammunition specifically for export to the US, and their quality control went south. Chinese ammunition head stamped 1992 and earlier seems to be OK - that stamped later is questionable. ItÃ¢??s not so much that post 1992 ChiCom ammunition is all bad so much it is that some rounds of this ammunition are over charged and develop excessive chamber pressures. Alas, there is no way to tell a good round from a bad one short of disassembling every round and checking :-(

Soviet Russian 7.62x25 ammunition, when it was available, was quite good and ideal for use in C96Ã¢??s. But itÃ¢??s been over a decade since there was any Soviet Russian 7.62x25 ammunition available. The current crop of Eastern European 7.62x25 milsurp ammunition is such poor quality stuff I donÃ¢??t recommend its use in *any* firearm - including C96Ã¢??s, TT-33Ã¢??s, and Vz.52Ã¢??s.

At this point in time there are only two 7.62x25/.30 Mauser ammunitions IÃ¢??d recommend for use in a C96; Fiocchi and carefully assembled handloads :-(

Hope this helps!

Warm regards,

Kyrie

06-24-2002, 02:33 AM	#1
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	7.63 Mauser (C96) Dear Friends, I have a couple of Broomhandles (C96 Mausers for complete novices) but am running into problems in getting 7.63mm ammunition for them. I've had some Fiocchi on order from Graf & Sons, Inc. for a couple of months now but nothing comes through. Does anyone know of any dependable sources? Regards, Jack

06-24-2002, 09:51 PM	#4
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack; I load my own, but it seems like there has been some Norinco for sale in the Shotgun News as of late. I have a lot of it, and it shoots very well. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

06-24-2002, 11:19 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack, avoid at all costs the Russian ammo that is available, I bought some that was advertised as C96 ammo. Three rounds and the bolt blew in half, luckily no one was hurt. I later found that it was SMG ammo and way too hot for the C96. Stick with a known manufacturer. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-28-2002, 12:04 AM	#14
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I bought 2 broomhandles from Jim at Mentor Arms a couple of years ago and he used Norinco to test every one of them. I bought a case of 2,260 rounds for next to nothing. I still see it in the Shotgun News once in awhile. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

06-29-2002, 12:30 AM	#16
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack; I will start looking for it and will get back to you when I find some. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

06-24-2002, 08:07 AM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Haunt the gun shows. I used to use Remington 7.63 Mauser, there might be some around. Fioccchi loads it, but they run a batch once every so often which probably explains why you can't get it just now by ordering. There will be dealers here and there with it on the shelf. Hansen or somebody loads it here in the US the last time I looked. S&B and Winchester load the 7.62 Tokarev which will work in a C96 if they chamber OK. I bought some of the Winchester stuff recently at a good price for one of the less common calibers. You can get Chinese 7.62 Tokarev in non-reloadable cases. I don't view the Chinese stuff as the best quality. I avoid the military surplus stuff. There is a rumour that S&B loaded some military (not civilian) stuff that was a bit hotter than you really want. And there's always the problem of corrosive primers. Before you shoot it check the condition of the corners on the locking lugs. They tend to get rounded off with a lot of milage and need to be squared up again. I've had at least one with a weak recoil spring too, but I don't now of any quick and easy way to tell you how to check it. unspellable

06-24-2002, 09:46 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by unspellable: <strong> Before you shoot it check the condition of the corners on the locking lugs. They tend to get rounded off with a lot of milage and need to be squared up again. I've had at least one with a weak recoil spring too, but I don't now of any quick and easy way to tell you how to check it. </strong><hr></blockquote> Others on this forum, with perhaps more authority than I, will recommend that you have the guns thoroughly checked by a competent gunsmith who knows Broomhandles to make sure they are safe to shoot. Of particular concern is the bolt-stop lug and the condition of the barrel extension rails. Failure of the bolt stop can lead to the bolt being completely ejected from the gun, with potentially fatal consequences. Some shooters here simply replace the bolt stop with one of modern manufacture when they go shooting. I expect that one of them will likely step in here and tell you where they can be obtained. 30 years ago I had a friend who had a Broomhandle, I think it was a Bolo, and we took it out to shoot a couple of times. I recall it being a lot of fun, wish I had one now. --Dwight

06-25-2002, 02:12 AM	#6
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom Heller has springs and I think bolt stops. He is listed on the Links & Resources of the Lugerforum.com homepage. I bought a broomhandle from him and he has (or at least had) ammo. Wolf springs also has spring sets. If the recoil and firing pin springs are shorter than the parts they slide over replace them! I bought loading dies from Lee and use 6.0gr Unique and a Sierra 85gr #8005 soft round nose and everything seems to work fine. I bought the brass from Starline. With all that I have read about Tokarev/Mauser ammo, I do not trust what I can buy! Steve Richards

06-25-2002, 03:03 PM	#7
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Herb, I'm curious about specifically what occurred when "the bolt blew in half" after the three rounds of Russian ammo you mention. The bolt-stop of the C96 is actually composed of a) the recoil-spring-stop and b) the actual bolt-stop. Although I've never had any actual problems with a bolt-stop myself, a C96 that I just bought has the lower part of the recoil-spring-stop broken off, and close examination of the recoil-spring stop on my other C96 showed a fine crack in it; but the actual bolt-stop itself is a pretty substantial piece of metal, and to shear it off, permitting the bolt to exit the barrel extension, would seem to be unusual. What actually happened when you experienced "the bolt blew in half"? Did the bolt and sheared-off bolt-stop actually exit and fly back at you? Regards, Jack

06-25-2002, 03:14 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack, the bolt did not exit the rear of the reciever, it broke in two about 1/4" behind the extractor with the front portion flying into the air along with the ejected casing. Looking at the broken edges it would appear that there is a possibility that the steel crystalized at that point. The bolt is (was) in really good condition appearing nearly new with the exception of slight blueing wear on the moving surfaces. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

06-25-2002, 08:49 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	My understanding of the posts which have invoked catastrophic breakage of the (substantial) bolt stop, is that cracking from the considerable impact of the bolt recoil and metal crystallization can be involved. --Dwight

06-26-2002, 09:15 PM	#10
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Send me an email tomorrow, I'll be at work & can call a local gunshop. They are usually very well stocked on all types of ammo. Question. I always thought that 7.62 Russ surplus & Chinese stuff was too powerful for BHs? RK

06-27-2002, 05:10 AM	#11
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dear Randall, I tried to send you a private post but got this message: An error has occured: Unable to connect to the SMTP server. The following error was returned: Connection refused. The server either does not exist, or rejected the connection. Please ensure that the UBB is allowed to relay mail through the server. Is this a matter for John S? Regards, Jack Please inform the board administration of this error so that they may fix the problem. Thank you!

06-27-2002, 06:58 AM	#12
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	No clue what's goin on. I'll check today & post later. RK

06-27-2002, 08:28 PM	#13
arjen User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dominion of Canada Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I found the Fiocchi pretty easy to find . The shop got it in a couple of weeks after I inquired about it . It was the burgundy box , made in Italy . It wasn't inexpensive , but still reasonable considering hardly anyone else makes it( $ 32.95 CAD for a box of 50 to be exact ). It seems reliable - a couple boxes so far - no duds . Maybe try another retailer , they might be more helpful .

06-28-2002, 03:52 AM	#15
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I haven't found it in the latest "Shotgun News", Lonnie. Do you know the name of the company that carries it? Maybe I can give them a call.

06-29-2002, 12:52 AM	#17
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Jack; I did a Google search and an outfit called lockstock&barrel has it advertised at (GASP) $600 for 2500 rounds. If you live around Oregon I will give you some of mine. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

06-29-2002, 03:26 AM	#18
Jack Owens User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Porterville, California Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Lonnie. Next time I get up to Oregon I'll drop by.

06-30-2002, 11:05 AM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Rick W.: <strong>I see that Starline Brass and Graf & Sons has listings for the 30 Mauser brass. Whether they have it in stock or not, one would have to inquire.</strong><hr></blockquote> Starline also offers the 7.62 Tokarev cases. They are identical in every way to the 7.63 Mauser cases except for the headstamp on the case. Starline brass is very good, speaking from my own experiences with it. They do have an on-line site that you can easily find by using a search engine.

06-30-2002, 04:07 PM	#20
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Jack! Be a little careful of the ChiCom 7.62x25. Jim Oehlenschlager at Mentor Arms did employ the ChiCom 7.62x25 to test fire the C96Ã¢??s heÃ¢??d worked on, and recommended its use in the C96Ã¢??s heÃ¢??d worked over. But he discontinued both his use of ChiCom ammunition and his recommendation for its use when he started to get C96Ã¢??s damaged by this ammunition. The problem here, in my opinion, is the Chinese got sloppy with the 7.62x25 ammunition they sold for export to the US. Back in the late 1980Ã¢??s when the Chinese first began exporting 7.62x25 to the US the ammo they sold to us was drawn from military stocks and was quite good stuff. But the demand was so great they seem to have begun making this ammunition specifically for export to the US, and their quality control went south. Chinese ammunition head stamped 1992 and earlier seems to be OK - that stamped later is questionable. ItÃ¢??s not so much that post 1992 ChiCom ammunition is all bad so much it is that some rounds of this ammunition are over charged and develop excessive chamber pressures. Alas, there is no way to tell a good round from a bad one short of disassembling every round and checking :-( Soviet Russian 7.62x25 ammunition, when it was available, was quite good and ideal for use in C96Ã¢??s. But itÃ¢??s been over a decade since there was any Soviet Russian 7.62x25 ammunition available. The current crop of Eastern European 7.62x25 milsurp ammunition is such poor quality stuff I donÃ¢??t recommend its use in any firearm - including C96Ã¢??s, TT-33Ã¢??s, and Vz.52Ã¢??s. At this point in time there are only two 7.62x25/.30 Mauser ammunitions IÃ¢??d recommend for use in a C96; Fiocchi and carefully assembled handloads :-( Hope this helps! Warm regards, Kyrie