GERMAN PISTOLS ACCURACY...

kidvett · 07-03-2002, 11:06 PM

After a brief discussion 2-3 weeks ago on the LUGER forum about P-38/P-08 accuracy, I took a couple of pistols to the range....Included were:

P-38 HP Commercial ( June 1943 production) Mint bore
P-38 BYF 43 ( May 43 production ) Good bore

P-08 S/42 ( March 1936 production ) Mint bore
P-08 BYF 42 ( August 1942 production ) Good bore

Preliminary testing at 25 yds showed the P-08's to be more accurate and HORRIBLE groups from the P-38's. So I took the MINT BORE Commercial HP against the GOOD BORE P-08.....

SADLY the BEST ACCURACY FROM THE P-38 WAS 4-5 inches

The LUGER ACCURACY WERE SUB 2 inches....

25 yards shooting, table with sandbags
WINCHESTER 147gr MATCH FACTORY AMMO

Comments.....

kidvett [img]frown.gif[/img]

AGE · 07-04-2002, 12:12 AM

Kidvett,

FYI I went shooting with my 17 year old grandson today. After warming up at 25 yds, he asked me if I could hit an old cartridge box left on the dusty 100 yd backstop. I hit it twice out of the first 5 shots with my 1936 Mauser shooter (it jumped in the air real nice). The gun has a dark bore, but no pits. The sights were right on. He then proceeded to hit it the first time with my accurized 1911 (holding the front sight about 1/16" above the rear sight). The kid is getting downright embarrassing. Never could have done it with a straight GI gun. We checked the box--sure enough a number of holes in it.

G.T. · 07-04-2002, 01:52 AM

Hi Kidvette! When I was in my headstrong age... I used to shoot my P.38's and Lugers quite a bit... I always ended up with the same results you did... terrible groups from the P.38's ... I finally put them away... I read an article in American Riflemen a long time ago, that told how to accurize a P.38, never did get around to it...but it most likely is possible? I will continue to shoot my lugers however... with all the neat info. on the forum, they just get better and better! Till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

Doubs · 07-04-2002, 12:41 PM

Back when my eyes were young, I often shot groups of five shots into 1.25 - 1.5 inches at 25 yards using a .30 Luger (DWM Commercial and 1920 Erfurt rework; both with short barrels). That's shooting from a bench over sandbags.

Back in the 1950's, my father and I bought a Luger together. It was a Mauser mismatch and the muzzle had been counter-bored and repaired using silver solder as best could be determined. (That barrel is somewhere among the things I brought home after Pop died.) Anyway, Pop ordered an 8 inch 9mm replacement barrel that I believe was made in Italy. While the pistol has never been reliable in feeding, the accuracy of that barrel is outstanding. A Coke can at 50 yards is no challenge. Some day, when I have a couple of mismatched shooters to play with, I'll find a combination with that barrel/receiver that will be reliable.

My experience with the P-38 is the same as the other guys.... not very accurate when compared to the Luger.

Dwight Gruber · 07-04-2002, 02:31 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Doubs:
<strong>
My experience with the P-38 is the same as the other guys.... not very accurate when compared to the Luger.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My experience, as well; I've put my P-38 away. Too bad, too, because they are an awful lot of fun to bang away with.

--Dwight

Kyrie · 07-04-2002, 03:06 PM

Hi Folks!

My experience with the P.38Ã¢??s accuracy has been quite different. Back in those days when my eyes were good enough to see the sights I had no problem kicking around a soda can at 100 meters with just about any P.38.

Warm regards,

Kyrie

Roadkill · 07-04-2002, 03:08 PM

Same results with me, but the factor is a true militarily developed gun versus a commercial one. A military weapon must be reliable under all conditions, mass produceable, reasonably affordable, accurate for combat use, and idiot proof. The P38 meets all these stipulations, the luger only one. The P38 is a true combat pistol, developed for that purpose and extensively used.
Combat with a pistol is a very imprecise activity.
Conditions stink, light is bad, heart is pounding, helmet is banging on your head, BP is way up there, the bad guys are way too close, and six inch groups are fine in a 20"X 3' moving target with the desire and capacity to hurt you.

rk

Doubs · 07-04-2002, 09:55 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill:
<strong>Same results with me, but the factor is a true militarily developed gun versus a commercial one. A military weapon must be reliable under all conditions, mass produceable, reasonably affordable, accurate for combat use, and idiot proof. The P38 meets all these stipulations, the luger only one. The P38 is a true combat pistol, developed for that purpose and extensively used.
rk</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't quite agree with everything you've put forth here. The Luger was developed with the specific intent of military sales. The extensive efforts to attract military sales are a matter of record and our own Army not only expressed interest in them but purchased a thousand of them for field testing. The Army later tested Lugers in larger calibers but ultimately purchased the model 1911. In the days when the revolver was still king, no semi-auto pistol was going to be accepted without extensive testing. It was necessary to sell the pistol commercially to offset costs of development. Still, Georg Luger and DWM always had their ambitions of selling the Luger to as many military services as possible. The 9mm chambering was the direct result of military demand.

I cannot recall ever having read that the German Army was disappointed in the performance of the Luger on the battlefield. It served well in the trenches of WW1; conditions that certainly ranked high among the worse conditions ever experienced by armies. It was accurate, produced in mass and obviously affordable. The basic strip-down and field cleaning is as close to idiot-proof as can be gotten.... easier than our own 1911 in my opinion and I can strip a 1911 as quickly as most and faster than many. The Luger, when stripped for cleaning, has six parts on the table. The 1911 has eight. There's no chance of a Luger part flying off to never-never land while being reassembled and that can't be said for the 1911. (This isn't an attack on the 1911 as I'd take it over any other pistol for combat. It's simply a comparison.)

As I see it, two very important factors influenced the German military to adopt a new handgun. The first was the limited Luger production capability of the arms makers in Germany from the end of the war into the mid-1930's when it was decided to look for an alternative. Following WW1, only Simpson was authorized to produce Lugers for the German military. I believe that the Erfurt machinery was obtained by Simpson for that purpose. DWM/BKW/Mauser didn't do much until the mid-1930's and were the only one capable of large output. It wasn't enough to equip the rapidly expanding military.

The second condition was the need to conserve materials while producing an arm that was cheaper, quicker and easier to make. It was likely just as easy to tool up for a new design with the advantages it offered as it would have been to re-tool new factories to produce the Luger. The resulting P-38 changed considerably from it's early internal striker design to the external hammer model that was finally adopted. The early commercial HP's were very nicely done and tolerances were kept much tighter than the war-production guns that followed. I'm not certain that the P-38 suffered from loose fit as much by design as from the demands of war production. Possibly both reasons played a part.

I won't argue that the P-38 wasn't the better combat pistol. There is no question that it clearly was. I do contend, however, that the Luger met all of your combat pistol conditions reasonably well at the time it was used for that purpose. It was the leading edge of combat pistol technology 100 years ago and I wouldn't feel that I was at any serious disadvantage if I had to carry one today. As the first semi-auto pistol adopted by a major power, it had a remarkably long life as a military pistol. Technology and new, improved designs overtook the old gal but she needn't hang her head in shame. She did her job quite well.

Edmond , DCB shooting · 07-08-2002, 05:51 AM

Hi Folks,
all P08 I shot even with dark bores shot nice 2 or 3 inches groups @25 meters. from all P38 I shot, one, an AC 41, was exceptional, 1& 1/2 inch, the rest being around 3 to 4 inches averages, all post war 38 or P1 were around 2 inches <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

kidvett · 07-08-2002, 03:23 PM

Hi Edmond,

That AC41 ( incredible shooter ) is a 1st / 2nd or 3rd variant? How's the bore condition? Which ammo did you used to do 1 1/2 in a 25 yds?

I have shot a lot of P-38 including : BYF's 42, 43, 44's. Walthers AC 42, 43 and 44's and some SPREEWERKE pistols....all with 3-5 inch groups a 25 yds.

My best one is a WALTHER HP ( June 43 production ), has a MINT BORE but still shoots 3-4 inches a 25 yds.

I've tried factory ammo and reloads with 115, 125 & 147 grs bullets.....

Please HELP...as I'm trying to get DECENT GROUPINGS from P-38's.....

Thanks

kidvett [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

Thor · 07-08-2002, 04:35 PM

I have a couple of P.38s that will hold 1.5"-2" but most I have fired are in the 2"-3" class at 25 yds. I JUST got back from a Range session and another WWI 9mm Luger fired a phenomenal group, 4 into a ragged hole at 25yds. The fifth round was about 1" away. These are nice accurate weapons. This was a DWM owned by Don Leverty. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Edmond , DCB shooting · 07-11-2002, 05:59 AM

Sorry Kidvett I posted in a new thread because I did not remember it was here, pls see "P38 AC, tight group" and yes the barrel was like unused, it was a pistol captured in Germany by a vet of 2nd french armored division, the one to arrive first at Hitler's nest in southern Germany aand it seems they gathered a lot of souvenirs on the way, as he told me , we made them free ( from nazis ) <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

07-03-2002, 11:06 PM	#1
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	GERMAN PISTOLS ACCURACY... After a brief discussion 2-3 weeks ago on the LUGER forum about P-38/P-08 accuracy, I took a couple of pistols to the range....Included were: P-38 HP Commercial ( June 1943 production) Mint bore P-38 BYF 43 ( May 43 production ) Good bore P-08 S/42 ( March 1936 production ) Mint bore P-08 BYF 42 ( August 1942 production ) Good bore Preliminary testing at 25 yds showed the P-08's to be more accurate and HORRIBLE groups from the P-38's. So I took the MINT BORE Commercial HP against the GOOD BORE P-08..... SADLY the BEST ACCURACY FROM THE P-38 WAS 4-5 inches The LUGER ACCURACY WERE SUB 2 inches.... 25 yards shooting, table with sandbags WINCHESTER 147gr MATCH FACTORY AMMO Comments..... kidvett [img]frown.gif[/img]

07-04-2002, 12:12 AM	#2
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Kidvett, FYI I went shooting with my 17 year old grandson today. After warming up at 25 yds, he asked me if I could hit an old cartridge box left on the dusty 100 yd backstop. I hit it twice out of the first 5 shots with my 1936 Mauser shooter (it jumped in the air real nice). The gun has a dark bore, but no pits. The sights were right on. He then proceeded to hit it the first time with my accurized 1911 (holding the front sight about 1/16" above the rear sight). The kid is getting downright embarrassing. Never could have done it with a straight GI gun. We checked the box--sure enough a number of holes in it. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

07-08-2002, 05:51 AM	#9
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Folks, all P08 I shot even with dark bores shot nice 2 or 3 inches groups @25 meters. from all P38 I shot, one, an AC 41, was exceptional, 1& 1/2 inch, the rest being around 3 to 4 inches averages, all post war 38 or P1 were around 2 inches <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

07-08-2002, 04:35 PM	#11
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I have a couple of P.38s that will hold 1.5"-2" but most I have fired are in the 2"-3" class at 25 yds. I JUST got back from a Range session and another WWI 9mm Luger fired a phenomenal group, 4 into a ragged hole at 25yds. The fifth round was about 1" away. These are nice accurate weapons. This was a DWM owned by Don Leverty. <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

07-11-2002, 05:59 AM	#12
Edmond , DCB shooting User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: FRANCE Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry Kidvett I posted in a new thread because I did not remember it was here, pls see "P38 AC, tight group" and yes the barrel was like unused, it was a pistol captured in Germany by a vet of 2nd french armored division, the one to arrive first at Hitler's nest in southern Germany aand it seems they gathered a lot of souvenirs on the way, as he told me , we made them free ( from nazis ) <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" /> __________________ Shoot'in by DCB

07-04-2002, 01:52 AM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Kidvette! When I was in my headstrong age... I used to shoot my P.38's and Lugers quite a bit... I always ended up with the same results you did... terrible groups from the P.38's ... I finally put them away... I read an article in American Riflemen a long time ago, that told how to accurize a P.38, never did get around to it...but it most likely is possible? I will continue to shoot my lugers however... with all the neat info. on the forum, they just get better and better! Till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

07-04-2002, 12:41 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	Back when my eyes were young, I often shot groups of five shots into 1.25 - 1.5 inches at 25 yards using a .30 Luger (DWM Commercial and 1920 Erfurt rework; both with short barrels). That's shooting from a bench over sandbags. Back in the 1950's, my father and I bought a Luger together. It was a Mauser mismatch and the muzzle had been counter-bored and repaired using silver solder as best could be determined. (That barrel is somewhere among the things I brought home after Pop died.) Anyway, Pop ordered an 8 inch 9mm replacement barrel that I believe was made in Italy. While the pistol has never been reliable in feeding, the accuracy of that barrel is outstanding. A Coke can at 50 yards is no challenge. Some day, when I have a couple of mismatched shooters to play with, I'll find a combination with that barrel/receiver that will be reliable. My experience with the P-38 is the same as the other guys.... not very accurate when compared to the Luger.

07-04-2002, 02:31 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Doubs: <strong> My experience with the P-38 is the same as the other guys.... not very accurate when compared to the Luger.</strong><hr></blockquote> My experience, as well; I've put my P-38 away. Too bad, too, because they are an awful lot of fun to bang away with. --Dwight

07-04-2002, 03:06 PM	#6
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Hi Folks! My experience with the P.38Ã¢??s accuracy has been quite different. Back in those days when my eyes were good enough to see the sights I had no problem kicking around a soda can at 100 meters with just about any P.38. Warm regards, Kyrie

07-04-2002, 03:08 PM	#7
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Same results with me, but the factor is a true militarily developed gun versus a commercial one. A military weapon must be reliable under all conditions, mass produceable, reasonably affordable, accurate for combat use, and idiot proof. The P38 meets all these stipulations, the luger only one. The P38 is a true combat pistol, developed for that purpose and extensively used. Combat with a pistol is a very imprecise activity. Conditions stink, light is bad, heart is pounding, helmet is banging on your head, BP is way up there, the bad guys are way too close, and six inch groups are fine in a 20"X 3' moving target with the desire and capacity to hurt you. rk

07-04-2002, 09:55 PM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,670 Thanks: 769 Thanked 1,611 Times in 525 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Roadkill: <strong>Same results with me, but the factor is a true militarily developed gun versus a commercial one. A military weapon must be reliable under all conditions, mass produceable, reasonably affordable, accurate for combat use, and idiot proof. The P38 meets all these stipulations, the luger only one. The P38 is a true combat pistol, developed for that purpose and extensively used. rk</strong><hr></blockquote> I don't quite agree with everything you've put forth here. The Luger was developed with the specific intent of military sales. The extensive efforts to attract military sales are a matter of record and our own Army not only expressed interest in them but purchased a thousand of them for field testing. The Army later tested Lugers in larger calibers but ultimately purchased the model 1911. In the days when the revolver was still king, no semi-auto pistol was going to be accepted without extensive testing. It was necessary to sell the pistol commercially to offset costs of development. Still, Georg Luger and DWM always had their ambitions of selling the Luger to as many military services as possible. The 9mm chambering was the direct result of military demand. I cannot recall ever having read that the German Army was disappointed in the performance of the Luger on the battlefield. It served well in the trenches of WW1; conditions that certainly ranked high among the worse conditions ever experienced by armies. It was accurate, produced in mass and obviously affordable. The basic strip-down and field cleaning is as close to idiot-proof as can be gotten.... easier than our own 1911 in my opinion and I can strip a 1911 as quickly as most and faster than many. The Luger, when stripped for cleaning, has six parts on the table. The 1911 has eight. There's no chance of a Luger part flying off to never-never land while being reassembled and that can't be said for the 1911. (This isn't an attack on the 1911 as I'd take it over any other pistol for combat. It's simply a comparison.) As I see it, two very important factors influenced the German military to adopt a new handgun. The first was the limited Luger production capability of the arms makers in Germany from the end of the war into the mid-1930's when it was decided to look for an alternative. Following WW1, only Simpson was authorized to produce Lugers for the German military. I believe that the Erfurt machinery was obtained by Simpson for that purpose. DWM/BKW/Mauser didn't do much until the mid-1930's and were the only one capable of large output. It wasn't enough to equip the rapidly expanding military. The second condition was the need to conserve materials while producing an arm that was cheaper, quicker and easier to make. It was likely just as easy to tool up for a new design with the advantages it offered as it would have been to re-tool new factories to produce the Luger. The resulting P-38 changed considerably from it's early internal striker design to the external hammer model that was finally adopted. The early commercial HP's were very nicely done and tolerances were kept much tighter than the war-production guns that followed. I'm not certain that the P-38 suffered from loose fit as much by design as from the demands of war production. Possibly both reasons played a part. I won't argue that the P-38 wasn't the better combat pistol. There is no question that it clearly was. I do contend, however, that the Luger met all of your combat pistol conditions reasonably well at the time it was used for that purpose. It was the leading edge of combat pistol technology 100 years ago and I wouldn't feel that I was at any serious disadvantage if I had to carry one today. As the first semi-auto pistol adopted by a major power, it had a remarkably long life as a military pistol. Technology and new, improved designs overtook the old gal but she needn't hang her head in shame. She did her job quite well.

07-08-2002, 03:23 PM	#10
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Edmond, That AC41 ( incredible shooter ) is a 1st / 2nd or 3rd variant? How's the bore condition? Which ammo did you used to do 1 1/2 in a 25 yds? I have shot a lot of P-38 including : BYF's 42, 43, 44's. Walthers AC 42, 43 and 44's and some SPREEWERKE pistols....all with 3-5 inch groups a 25 yds. My best one is a WALTHER HP ( June 43 production ), has a MINT BORE but still shoots 3-4 inches a 25 yds. I've tried factory ammo and reloads with 115, 125 & 147 grs bullets..... Please HELP...as I'm trying to get DECENT GROUPINGS from P-38's..... Thanks kidvett [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]