1917 Arty rig c/w drum

[alamar]

Hi

I am hoping that some of the more experienced members on the board can help me in understanding what my Artlllery Luger is. I want to know whether it is a collectable or more of a shooter. As well, approximate values would be helpful as well. This is the one I mentioned in Sparky's thread in General Discussion. (The H&H barrel thread).

Pictures are posted below:

Its a 1917 dated DWM. Looks like all numbers match. Should the grips have a 2 digit code as well? I am confused with the barrel however. I thought that all Lugers had a serial number followed by a lower case "script" letter. All mine has is the full 4 digit serial number with "8.82" below it. I don't really know how to gauge the amount of bluing remaining. The bluing is worn off somewhat near the muzzle and on a number of high spots. Other than that its all there. I'd say it 96-98%, but could just as easily be 80%?! On the right side of the frame are 4 proof marks (can't make them out at the moment (my eyes are getting worse!). There is also a 5th mark right at the breech end of the barrel on the right side as well. It is in line with the sight adjustment bar (don't know the real term sorry) that is right above it.

The drum magazine is stamped "450653" on both sides of the flat side of the drum. It also has a "B" with a horizontal line below it followed below that by an "N". As well, the numbers spaced around the outer perimeter of the drum of "12, 17, 27, and 32" Which I assume are the numbers of rounds in the mag.

The mag cover has 6 tabs on the back spine, 3 on the bottom and 2 on top at the back as well.

The wooden shoulder stock seems to be off in serial number. It is 1547, 19 digits off of the pistol. There also could be mark or stamp below it right between the 2nd and 3rd digits, but it could also be a ding.

I also have 2 leather holsters for it. Neither is near perfect. The one attached to the wooden shoulder stock has no markings on the front. would there be something on the back side? The flap looks to be of a different colour than the rest of it. Should it have the little pocket on the inside for the tool? This one does not. The pocket for the cleaning rod has rotted away.

The other leather holster is missing the flap. it is stamped onthe front:
"F. GROSSE
DRESDEN-N.
1917"

Finally te regular mag seems to be stainless or nickel with a wooden base. There are no markings whatsoever on the mag. The wooden base has a 4 digit number. it si either 8811,8211 or 8212 or 8112. Ya i know, I'll get out the magnifying glass this weekend!! There could also be a mark on the bottom of the wood at the back of the mag, but again it could also be a ding.

Any help in telling me what I have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Alamar

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...luger_1001.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...luger_1002.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...luger_1007.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...luger_1008.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...luger_1009.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...1013_copy1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...luger_1014.jpg

[Curly1]

I just got started in this myself so I can't give ya any particulars about your piece other than it looks like a damn fine piece of hardware that anyone should be proud to have in there collection.

And I would guess with all the matching numbers and snail drum, stock, and holsters if its all original this rig is gonna be worth some cool beans.

I'm sure the folks here are gonna weigh in on it and answer all yer questions.

Enjoyed the pics.

[Doug G.]

I fixed your image links. Without close up pics it will be hard to make a good determination, but it looks like it is in the collector range to me. I have two 1917 DWM Artilleries. One has the letter suffix on the barrel, the other does not. What is the serial number of your gun? Your type 2 Trommel mag was made by "Bing" looks very nice and has the correct dust cover. The holster on the board stock looks nice, but would like to see more up close pics of it as well. The second holster is good for parts only. Looking foward to more pics of this gun.

[Big Norm]

Alamar,
welcome to the forum. You have a lot to learn about Lugers but you will learn a lot of this forum.If this is your first artillery luger or luger, then you have made a righteous purchase. Your pictures were decent but I can see something that tells me that it hasn't been monkeyed with. That thing is what is called the 'Locking Bolt'. The 'Locking Bolt' is the leaver on the left hand side of the gun just above the trigger. That leaver holds the frame to te receiver. The flat surface on that leaver looks flat and not rounded. That is the way it is supposed to look if some jerk didn't restraw it.

The serial numbers start at "1" for the first military contract for that year and will increase by one until 9,999 is passed OR until that milary contract with the factory is completed. If that miltary contract was completed, then when the next contract will have the next contracts serial number start at '1a' and the numbering process of serial numbering the guns will begin anew with the 'a' suffix. If the contract completion was for more than 9,999 guns, then the 'a' suffix would be added and the number would begin with '1a'. The 1917 artillery was a specification transition year for artilleries. Sometime during that manufacture year, the adjusting screws on the front and rear and rear screws were eliminated.

The serial numbers under the barrel and on the front of the frame should have the same serial number. If there is a small cap after the serial number on the frame then it should also be on the underside of the barrel. The "8.82" that you see under the serial numbers is a measurment of the bore of the barrel at the time of maufacture and is not part of the serial number. The mark on the side of the barrel is an eagle and its a proof mark that indicates that the barrel was inspected and approved by the manufacturer (DWM).

The four marks on the right side indicates that this gun passed four different inspections during testing. On some Lugers, you will find fewer than four or sometimes five marks there. That means that the gun failed inspection and was sold on the open market to military personal for a personal side arm.

From what I can see of your pictures, your artillery looks just fine and may very well be in the 90%+ range. I cannot tell about the strawing percentile from the pictures. Closer pictures of the serial numbers and proof marks would be needed to really tell if if has been monkeyed with. But it looks very nice.

The grips look very nice. Be VERY, VERY (emphasis added) careful taking the feft hand grip off. Carelessness can cause a small chip to break off up near the thumb safety. This is often referred to as the million dollar chip because some collectors would offer a million dollars if they could find a way to repair it on an original, numbered to the gun grip. The wood on these old grips is quite brittle and they break easily. Probably the best way to take the left grip off is to remove the right grip first and then push the left grip off from the inside at near the base.

Do not put gun oil on the grips. It will cause them to blacken and their deteriation will begin. If you want to darken them, do it by using a walnut stain. The grips should have a two digit serial number on the underside, but don't be totally surprised if its not there or if there is a different number there. These guns are prety old and a number of people have handled them.

Your snail drum is a nice type '2' magazine. The serial number doesn't mean diddily. Your shoulder stock is hard to see because of the photo glare. An authentic stock would have a proof mark just under the four screws on the left side. It would look simular to the horse on a chess board at first glance. I can't see it. The wood looks in to-good a condition for a ninety year old stock. MAYBE the original stock was broken and someone replaced it with new wood. But I am just guessing.

Your one holster looks good, from what little that I can tell, and the date and manufacturer marking sounds good. I have seen manufacturing markings all over the holsters. The washers and the screws look new. If they were original, they would be very tarnished. The buttons on the shoulder staps also look new. But it is difficult to tell from the pictures. The difference in the color of the leather (particularly the shoulder straps) suggests that this is a put together rig. I can only guess at how much of it is original.

As for price, I would estimate that this rig is worth about $5.00. But I will offer $7.50 plus $20.00 for shipping and handling since you are such a nice gentleman.

I hope this helps. I my one finger is getting tired and its past my bedtime so I will leave further comments and intellectual glory to other experts on this forum.
Big Norm Z-Z-Z-Z

[Navy]

For the love of all that is sweet and holy, pls do NOT put any sort of stain on the grips. Just leave them alone. They are wonderful as is.

Tom A.

[George Anderson]

I would very much like to see several close-up detailed photos of the front, back and interior of the lid on the holster.

[OldFalGuy]

Congrats on your arty, if the mag and gun match to the stock mo betta and that is the sort of rig I have been looking for a while- take good care of it.