Borchardt Sale

[Big Norm]

Ok gentlemen! Here is another specimen that I think might be a excellent gun for sale. (I have previously mentioned another under a 1918 artillery). It is a Borchardt (but there is no mention as to whether or not it is a DWM or a Loews). Its kinda expensive, but these specimens are normally expensive anyway. But its nice to mention it anyway. Too very often we criticise lugers and I feel obliged to mention something good for a change.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=66140360

The only objection that I would like to mention is that the case does not contain an oiling can and that the holster seems to be a wee bit used. I am not bidding on it because I already have a DWM Borchardt (which, MHO, has a better holster, but w/o the nose strap and a matching mag). I am also not bidding on it because I have some expensive repairs to do on my motor home and some talking to do to the IRS. But look at it and enjoy.
Big Norm*

* not affiliated with Jan Stills or Maruo in any way, outside of admiration for both

[southriv]

I know this shop & the owner. A good guy who I've bought from before. I'm not surprised to see this gem pop up. There are all kinds of jewels hidden in this part of the country.

Bob

[Big Norm]

Bob,
the gun looks good. But the seller didn't specify if it was a DWM or a Loews and I already have a DWM so I didn't pursue with an Email. It looks like the price is close to value. But thats an individual matter.

Your right about there being jewels around this wonderful country of ours. I was at a gun show a few weeks ago and a guy was walking around with a nice navy holster. I bought it from him and then I talked to him. He then told me that he had a navy luger that he wanted to sell. He knew little about navies, but from his description it sounded like a 1906 2nd issue with a navy mag. He said that he wouldn't sell it for less than $3400 and I nearly dropped my drawers. I don't know the condition of the gun and he didn't bring it with him. I said that I was interested and we exchanged address and telephone numbers. Later that night, I got a little over eager and called him. He said that he had another gun that he was going to sell to a dealer and that he would bring his gun with him to show to me.

He got to the show before I did and so to kill time, he showed it to another dealer at the very first table at the show who promptly jumped on it without hesitation. That dealer, who wasn't even a Luger dealer, immediately sold it to a customer and I never even got a chance to even see the gun. When I got to the show and found out, I read the riot act to the guy. He knew that he did wrong and so, later in the show, he found me and gave me an original artillery cleaning rod as a peace offering.

This has happened to me before and so I should have known better and have actually gone to the guys house to view the gun. The moral to the story is that if you see something that you like and the price is right, do the deed. There are good guns out there, but you have to be patient and keep your eyes open. You only have to succeed once to have something to brag about for the rest of your life. Of course, you also have to know what you are looking for/at and what is actually a good price. That is where this AND Jan Stills forums come in.
Big Norm

[thegundude]

Geez, Norm. That story breaks my heart... I'd have been tempted to do more than "read him the riot act". It seems a terribly strange thing to do especially considering that he gave you an arty rod for your trouble. That's just dumb.

It's an strange world...

[minigun]

Uh Norm, that sucks. I'd be P.O'ed too!

Ok, I see this one at $21K with reserve not met. What do these in this condition really go for now?

[Ron Wood]

At least $25K-$27K for a nearly complete cased set in that condition, and the manual is worth around $1000 more. I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone with deep pockets shells out $30K for this one.

[Big Norm]

Ron is probably right. But prices can vary. I saw a DWM with lotsa goodies at a show last year going for $26,000 and it had 5 unmatching mags. The second time I saw it it had only two unmatching mags. I don't remember everything else it had with it. Maybe the oil can which the seller wouldn't sell separately (cry, cry). That gun wasn't in as good a shape as this gun is though.

I saw a Loewe at the Ohio Gun Collectors show going for $25,000 and it had nothing with it.

I bought my DWM in 2002 for $8050 and it has a stock (unnumbered), strap, cheek piece and one of the better holsters that I have seen. The magazine is original but the serial number does not match the gun. I showed it to Doug Smith of FGS shortly afterward, while I was bragging, and he offered me $11,000. Some guy who was just standing nearby offered me $16,000 after I left Dougs table. I seriously considered that offer at the time, but passed. But things have changed since then, so my info here is, in reality, worthless.

But here are my subjective thoughts on this gun.
Two matching mags and a possibility of finding the third is very good
The case contains the hold open, which can be a hard find if you don't have one.
There is a handle there which is possibly for a cleaning rod. I guessing here.
I don't see the oil can.
The holster doesn't look that great, but few are.
I would like to know if it is the harder to find Loewe or if its a DWM
I would like to know if the stock is numbered to the gun. If memory serves me right, this was sort of a vague thing in the books that I read. Maybe Ron could shed some light here.
The gun itself looks pretty darn good, but since this is a commercial gun, most are in pretty good shape.
I won't say anything about the case, except that its shape is about standard for this gun, at least from what I have seen.
Believe Ron when he says the price on the manual. Simpson had one in Spanish a long time ago and it was going for $1000. I gotta go back to this sale to see if I can tell if this manual is in English.

Oh, don't believe anyone who says that they have shot this gun. Ammo would have to be custom made and if you break something you will be out a LOT OF MONEY (understatement because there are no replacement parts). Don't disassemble the gun while its cocked. I have received many warnings on that one.

Like the 1918 artillery auction that I posted below, this could be a fun auction to watch, even if you don't have the money.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Well, the manual looks like its might be in english but its still hard to really tell. Another thing than I didn't mention above is that you should be careful with the cheek piece. The screw that holds it to the stock can break off easily.
Big Norm

[Ron Wood]

This Borchardt is a Loewe. The stock should be numbered to the gunâ?¦DWMs are not. The handle holds the screwdriver bits that you can see in the front compartment in one of the photos. This cased set also has a cleaning rod that fits in the handle as well. It is visible in one of the photos at the bottom of the case in back. This is a little unusual since the cleaning rod in the hold-open (or as some call it the â??barringâ?�) block is the only one that comes with a cased set. I suspect that the long rod is a custom made piece, but probably made a long time ago.

It used to be that most of the Borchardts that came on the market were Loewes. The last few years, it has been about even between Loewe and DWM examples. There were roughly 1100 Loewe pieces manufactured and about 1900 DWM pieces, so you would expect the DWM guns to be more plentiful on the market, but that has not been my experience. There is an overlap in serial numbers. I have #1083 recorded as a DWM, but my highest recorded number for a Loewe is #1123! The highest number for a DWM that I have listed is #3013. I owe much of my data base to noted Borchardt collector David Eash, and I have only been maintaining and updating the list for the past 10 years.

I have always been fascinated with Borchardts, and fell in love with my first one in 1984 when I bought #72 for $2000.

[Big Norm]

Ron,
thank you. You always seem to have the right answers at the right time. In reviewing the pictures in "The Luger Book" pg 72-73 by John Walter I can see the markings differences between the Loewe and the DWM on the right side of the receiver. Even the proof marks on the left side of the receiver are slightly different too. I didn't know what that pear shaped handle was in the auction case. Its not in any of the pictures. The pictures in Walters book also show a small brush in the lower right hand corner of the case which is not in the pictures in Reeses book. Reese shows on his book a very simular cased set and he indicates that the pistol came with only two magazines. If you ever find magazine number 2051, I need it because mine came with magazine serial number 1968.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Ok, I some how missed the additional pictures showing the top of the receiver. But now that I spent a little more time on this set, I can see that the shoulder straps for the stock/holster are not shown (missing?). On page 75 of Walters book, there are two cans shown for the Loewe. One would be the oil can and I don't know what the second can is for. The Pear shaped handle is for a cleaning rod and three magazines are shown. Four cleaning rod excessories besides the long cleaning rod are also shown. The cheek piece is also numbered to the gun.
Big Norm

So what is missing from the auctioned set is the oil can and the shoulder straps. The third magazine might be found after some searching.
Big Norm

[Pete Ebbink]

I have heard from one bidder that this reserve is set at $ 36K...

[Big Norm]

Geez!!! $36K !!!! Well, here is a situation where the bidders do some price research and then set a price in mind. Then do the deed by bidding your price or pass. If your price is too low, then God has just said "NO!" and you should move on to something else. If the other bidder is just trying to fool people into not bidding or if you want to take a shot anyway and you win, then pat yourself of the back.

I've lost out on a Luger on Saturday during auctions. It happens. When the price went too far, in my opinion, I just opened a can of pop and unfolded a Klondike ice cream bar and found another Luger that I am now watching. I'm not telling about that one though. (HEE! HEE!)

But no matter how you look at it, the venerable Ron Wood and (hopefully me) have passed on information about the Borchardt pistol. So maybe the next time that a Borchardt comes along, you have some pointers to think about and (who knows?) you might get lucky. This should not stop you from having some fun watching this auction to see what happens. I have a book mark on it and book marks are cheap.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Geez!!! $36K !!!! Well, here is a situation where the bidders do some price research and then set a price in mind. Then do the deed by bidding your price or pass. If your price is too low, then God has just said "NO!" and you should move on to something else. If the other bidder is just trying to fool people into not bidding or if you want to take a shot anyway and you win, then pat yourself of the back.

I've lost out on a Luger on Saturday during auctions. It happens. When the price went too far, in my opinion, I just opened a can of pop and unfolded a Klondike ice cream bar and found another Luger that I am now watching. I'm not telling about that one though. (HEE! HEE!)

But no matter how you look at it, the venerable Ron Wood and (hopefully me) have passed on information about the Borchardt pistol. So maybe the next time that a Borchardt comes along, you have some pointers to think about and (who knows?) you might get lucky. This should not stop you from having some fun watching this auction to see what happens. I have a book mark on it and book marks are cheap.
Big Norm

[Bob in OH]

I see it's at 36K and reserve is still not met...hmmm

[Pete Ebbink]

Sorry...Bob...

Just posted what one of the bidders told me in person at the SOS show while we were both chatting with Doug Smith at his tables.

[Big Norm]

I guess that the economy in other parts of the USA isn't as bad as it is in Michigan. I know that these guns go for big bucks but this one is out of my range. But the gun has got some good things going for it, like that manual. Thats nearly an impossible thing to find, in English yet. I guess that the possibly missing mag and an oil can can be found to make this a complete set, if the buyer wants to look for them. My SWAG is that a Loewes will go for more than a DWM.

But Pete shouldn't feel too bad. Ron Wood took a guess at $30K Heck, its only money. The sellers of this and a certain 1918 artillery should give me a cut of their profits because both of them made some pretty good buckos on their guns after I recommended them. But we all know that that won't happened.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

As Goomer Pyle would say..."G-O-O-O-L-Y!!!!"

[Chuckc]

I see the final selling price was $58,525. I remember when you could buy a nice house for that. Holy Smokes!

[the gunman]

House and two new cars