Borchardt - Luger Predecessor

micott · 04-04-2011, 06:09 PM

I just saw a borchard for sale on Gunbroker.com and the seller said it was the predecessor to the luger and was very rare. I was wondering if anyone had any idea how many borchards were still in existance and what was a reasonable value given a 70% condition. Should I add this piece, if I can afford, to my collection. Thanks, Mike

Hugo Borchardt · 04-04-2011, 06:14 PM

Welcome, Mike.

Borchardts are the predecessor to the Luger prior to 1900. Georg Luger worked with Borchardt and together they perfected the design. The first lugers were originally called the "Borchardt-Luger System".

Borchardts are pretty rare. A stock, holster, accessories and case completes the set, but without them they are still very valuable.

The forum has rules I think on commenting on auctions so as Forest Gump would say "That's all I have to say about that".

Clark

cirelaw · 04-04-2011, 06:31 PM

Even without the stock!

sheepherder · 04-04-2011, 06:51 PM

The last Borchardt I saw on GB went for $9000 about a year & a half ago...

hgreer2 · 04-04-2011, 08:52 PM

Yeah, it's the Whoopie Goldburg of Luger collecting........ :-)

Harry

Edward Tinker · 04-05-2011, 02:05 AM

No, neither this, nor Jan's forum objects to current auctions. Main gunboards does not approve, but we have never minded.

Mike, read about the Borchardt here, there are plenty of threads about them, and secondly, buy some luger books, most of them cover the borchardt, some in detail some not. In that same vein, read about good books and not so good books.

Ed

JTD · 04-05-2011, 07:07 AM

Has anyone ever shot one of these?

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTD

Has anyone ever shot one of these?

Yes! It is really a sweet shooting gun.

cirelaw · 04-05-2011, 02:27 PM

Is there any idea how many still survive?? Were there different varieties?

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 02:48 PM

The gun on Gunbroker is a decent example. The spring plates at the rear are replacements and not a good copy. The magazine is #1344, so mismatched…but still an original magazine. In the current economy I would guess that the value of this Borchardt is in the $7000-$9000 range. The spring plates have been correctly reproduced but I don’t know a source.

A.Mifsin · 04-05-2011, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The gun on Gunbroker is a decent example. The spring plates at the rear are replacements and not a good copy. The magazine is #1344, so mismatched…but still an original magazine. In the current economy I would guess that the value of this Borchardt is in the $7000-$9000 range. The spring plates have been correctly reproduced but I don’t know a source.

Ron, any hint how to see if the spring plates are a copy?
Alf.

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 05:33 PM

Alf,
An original spring plate is fire blued spring steel. It is attached to the gun by a "T" shaped stud that is rivited to the plate. There is a "dimple" on the bottom end of the plate that engages the detents on the frame for the open and closed postition of the plate.

The Gunbroker Borchardt has a plate that is fabricated from flat stock (not spring steel) with a hex-head attaching fixture. The frame detents have been removed.

JTD · 04-05-2011, 09:32 PM

Ron, I have a good pic of you shooting it somewhere. John

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTD

Ron, I have a good pic of you shooting it somewhere. John

Yes, that was a once in a lifetime experience!

cirelaw · 04-05-2011, 10:06 PM

How was the accuracy+

lugerholsterrepair · 04-05-2011, 11:21 PM

David Eash brought this fine pistol and was kind enough to let around 20 of us fire it. David Borjes was our ammunition expert and provided around 3 rounds each. Ellie, my Wife fired 5 but she deserved it for putting up with a hoard of gun guys.

Like Ron says..a once in a lifetime experience. Not very many fellows alive on Planet Earth can say they have ever shot a Borchardt!

The accuracy was perfect. David immediately brought rounds to bear in the black and as I remember Ron was in there too. It was unfortunate that we didn't get a few rounds off without the stock but we only had so many..

Thanks to David Eash and Dave Borjes for putting that together!

Ron Wood · 04-05-2011, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

How was the accuracy+

Three shots at 25 yards. The second shot went a little high because I was so excited about hitting with the first! I settled down for the third shot.

John Sabato · 04-06-2011, 09:10 AM

Thanks for sharing that experience guys... and with photos yet! I finally met David at Tom Armstrong's funeral... I was introduced by by our long time mutual friend George Anderson.

sheepherder · 04-18-2011, 08:12 AM

Well!!!

This is interesting...I may be guilty of reading between the lines here, but to me it appears that this was a scam...

This item has been Sold!

This auction has ended but the item has been relisted.
Click here to view the new listing: Item # 225507806

Borchardt C93 - 7.65x25mm

Current Bid $10,001.00 Reserve Met! Started at $5,000.00
Quantity 1 # of bids 20 Bid History
Time left Listing has Ended
15 minute rule
Start 4/2/2011 10:17:00 PM ET (This is a 14 day auction)
Ends On or After 4/16/2011 10:51:01 PM ET

...It's been sold but it's relisted???...

...From the relist...

This auction has ended

Borchardt C93 - 7.65x25mm

Current Bid $0.00 Reserve Not Met Started at $5,000.00
Quantity 1 # of bids 0 Bid History
Time left Listing has Ended
15 minute rule Location FORT COLLINS, CO 80525
Start 4/16/2011 10:54:47 PM ET (This is a 14 day auction)
Ends On or After 4/17/2011 2:04:30 PM ET (GunBroker.com Official Time)

After which, GB has inserted the following disclaimer -

This auction has ended

This is a Reserve Price auction in which the reserve price was not met. Because the Reserve Price was not met, no transaction exists between the seller and the high bidder and buying or selling this item is a violation of our site's User Agreement. Auction services such as feedback, messaging, problem resolution assistance, fraud claims, and Buyer's Protection are not available for this item. Auction services are available only for items listed, bought and sold in compliance with the terms of our User Agreement.

At first I thought the buyer had reneged on the sale...But from the GB disclaimer, I think the seller either did not have the gun...or he tried to relist it for a higher price...

Whatcha all think???

alanint · 04-18-2011, 09:08 AM

The reserve price was not met, so there is no deal. Unless further information comes to light, neither buyer nor seller reneged on anything. The minimum price the seller wanted for the gun was not reached by the highest bidder, so there is no sale.
No mystery here.

04-04-2011, 06:14 PM	#2
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	Welcome, Mike. Borchardts are the predecessor to the Luger prior to 1900. Georg Luger worked with Borchardt and together they perfected the design. The first lugers were originally called the "Borchardt-Luger System". Borchardts are pretty rare. A stock, holster, accessories and case completes the set, but without them they are still very valuable. The forum has rules I think on commenting on auctions so as Forest Gump would say "That's all I have to say about that". Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

04-04-2011, 06:31 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	They sure are pretty Even without the stock! Attached Thumbnails

04-04-2011, 06:51 PM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	The last Borchardt I saw on GB went for $9000 about a year & a half ago... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

04-05-2011, 02:05 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	No, neither this, nor Jan's forum objects to current auctions. Main gunboards does not approve, but we have never minded. Mike, read about the Borchardt here, there are plenty of threads about them, and secondly, buy some luger books, most of them cover the borchardt, some in detail some not. In that same vein, read about good books and not so good books. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-05-2011, 02:48 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The gun on Gunbroker is a decent example. The spring plates at the rear are replacements and not a good copy. The magazine is #1344, so mismatched…but still an original magazine. In the current economy I would guess that the value of this Borchardt is in the $7000-$9000 range. The spring plates have been correctly reproduced but I don’t know a source. Attached Images __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-04-2011, 06:09 PM	#1
micott New User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Denver Colorado Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Borchardt - Luger Predecessor I just saw a borchard for sale on Gunbroker.com and the seller said it was the predecessor to the luger and was very rare. I was wondering if anyone had any idea how many borchards were still in existance and what was a reasonable value given a 70% condition. Should I add this piece, if I can afford, to my collection. Thanks, Mike

04-04-2011, 08:52 PM	#5
hgreer2 Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 309 Thanks: 1 Thanked 29 Times in 20 Posts	Yeah, it's the Whoopie Goldburg of Luger collecting........ :-) Harry

04-05-2011, 07:07 AM	#7
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 215 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	Has anyone ever shot one of these?

04-05-2011, 02:27 PM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Is there any idea how many still survive?? Were there different varieties?

04-05-2011, 05:33 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Alf, An original spring plate is fire blued spring steel. It is attached to the gun by a "T" shaped stud that is rivited to the plate. There is a "dimple" on the bottom end of the plate that engages the detents on the frame for the open and closed postition of the plate. The Gunbroker Borchardt has a plate that is fabricated from flat stock (not spring steel) with a hex-head attaching fixture. The frame detents have been removed. Attached Images __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-05-2011, 09:32 PM	#13
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 215 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	Ron, I have a good pic of you shooting it somewhere. John

04-05-2011, 10:06 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	How was the accuracy+

04-05-2011, 11:21 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	David Eash brought this fine pistol and was kind enough to let around 20 of us fire it. David Borjes was our ammunition expert and provided around 3 rounds each. Ellie, my Wife fired 5 but she deserved it for putting up with a hoard of gun guys. Like Ron says..a once in a lifetime experience. Not very many fellows alive on Planet Earth can say they have ever shot a Borchardt! The accuracy was perfect. David immediately brought rounds to bear in the black and as I remember Ron was in there too. It was unfortunate that we didn't get a few rounds off without the stock but we only had so many.. Thanks to David Eash and Dave Borjes for putting that together! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-06-2011, 09:10 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Thanks for sharing that experience guys... and with photos yet! I finally met David at Tom Armstrong's funeral... I was introduced by by our long time mutual friend George Anderson. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-18-2011, 08:12 AM	#19
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Well!!! This is interesting...I may be guilty of reading between the lines here, but to me it appears that this was a scam... This item has been Sold! This auction has ended but the item has been relisted. Click here to view the new listing: Item # 225507806 Borchardt C93 - 7.65x25mm Current Bid $10,001.00 Reserve Met! Started at $5,000.00 Quantity 1 # of bids 20 Bid History Time left Listing has Ended 15 minute rule Start 4/2/2011 10:17:00 PM ET (This is a 14 day auction) Ends On or After 4/16/2011 10:51:01 PM ET ...It's been sold but it's relisted???... ...From the relist... This auction has ended Borchardt C93 - 7.65x25mm Current Bid $0.00 Reserve Not Met Started at $5,000.00 Quantity 1 # of bids 0 Bid History Time left Listing has Ended 15 minute rule Location FORT COLLINS, CO 80525 Start 4/16/2011 10:54:47 PM ET (This is a 14 day auction) Ends On or After 4/17/2011 2:04:30 PM ET (GunBroker.com Official Time) After which, GB has inserted the following disclaimer - This auction has ended This is a Reserve Price auction in which the reserve price was not met. Because the Reserve Price was not met, no transaction exists between the seller and the high bidder and buying or selling this item is a violation of our site's User Agreement. Auction services such as feedback, messaging, problem resolution assistance, fraud claims, and Buyer's Protection are not available for this item. Auction services are available only for items listed, bought and sold in compliance with the terms of our User Agreement. At first I thought the buyer had reneged on the sale...But from the GB disclaimer, I think the seller either did not have the gun...or he tried to relist it for a higher price... Whatcha all think??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

04-18-2011, 09:08 AM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The reserve price was not met, so there is no deal. Unless further information comes to light, neither buyer nor seller reneged on anything. The minimum price the seller wanted for the gun was not reached by the highest bidder, so there is no sale. No mystery here.