1920 Commercial

[David Jackson]

The gun I posted a query is basically the same gun in the pig and acorn thread, except good finish, Eagle, safe and loaded.

Any thoughts on potential value would be apprecieated.

David J.

[Marvin]

Hello David,


The 1920 Commercial Luger is the lowest priced pistols currently as there were so many of them produced and exported to the US, and other countries. The ones that have the Stoeger, Bannerman stamps do bring a premium.


Most of the Commercials will have the shorter barrel than the 9mmP and will be in .30 cal Luger. With them being so low in cost, they are an excellent starter pistol. The prices for an excellent conditioon pistol will be approx. $800 and can go up from there, many of thewse pistols are not in top condition and the price will be as low as $400-500 for the average Luger. Althought they don't have the history of the wartime Lugers, they certainly are fun to shoot and collect. The only problem for the .30 cal. is the ammo availalbity. The Fiocchi ammo seems to be underpowered and I have never tired any other brand. Reloading for this caliber would seen to be the way to go for consistant operation.


Your pistol with the "safe" and "loaded" stamp will have a higher value that the standard German stamps. This may put your pistol near the $1000 range in exc. condition. I am just learning a little on the Commercials so my pricing may not be 100% correct, but I feel this is close.


Marvin

[BILL]

Check out Jan C. Still's 'Weimar Lugers' for more info on these.

[Ron Wood]

I read your earlier query and this thread, and I am uncertain what this Luger is. I have a few questions observations. Questions: 1)What is the caliber? 1920 Alphabet Commercials are 7.65mm. 2) Does the barrel and frame have the same serial number? Next the observations: 1) The Safe/Loaded Lugers were not Alphabet commercials, they were numbered in the commercial 5-digit range somewhere around 80000 to 90000 plus or minus 5000 either way. 2) There were no 1920 Eagles. I can only conjecture that your Luger is a mix of parts, but will withhold any further guesses until you respond. Neat problem though!

[BILL]

Ron, the only 'Eagle' even closely fitting a 1920 commercial would be a Mauser made DWM Stoeger American Eagle. These had the three line Stoeger inscription and were 'Safe/Loaded' marked. These are quite rare,(saw two nice ones in Peoria recently) but as you point out..there were no Commercial 1920 Eagles.

[BILL]

Jan C. Still does show what he refers to as an 'Alphabet DWM Commercial Luger'. It has an American Eagle on the chamber and is a 3-7/8" barrel in .30 caliber. The one pictured is 'Gesichert' marked. (This is not a Stoeger marked gun). It has a 5930q serial.

[David Jackson]

Thanks for all the input and good information fellow forum users!

Here is what I have found; on page 202 Kenyon shows and discusses a 1923 Commercial, Safe & Loaded. He mentions some having an eagle over the chamber.


That all matches this gun except for the serial number range.


In answer to Ron Wood's question; yes all the numbers match. Cal .30 Luger. Definitely has an Eagle and definitely is not from parts assembled after the fact.


In response the Bill; this is closer to a Mauser assembled DWM eagle than anything else except the suffix (k) is too early.


Marvin; I don't think I can get this one for $1,000; of course that doesn't mean it is worth more than that; just means the person who has it thinks it is!


David J.


Harry Jones mentions 1920 and 1923 Commercials and asserts those guns with four digit numbers and a suffix are 1920 guns. His book is older than Kenyon's and so Keynon's knowledge, being more recent, might be better ...


except


Jan Still, in Weimar Lugers, pp 28 to 30, (as Bill mentions) has more to say on these alphabet DWMs which is what I think this is. I think this gun (cal .30 Luger) is a commercial gun made in about 1922 or 1923 (the suffix is "k") for sale in the US. I think it may have been sold to Stoeger before Stoeger started having the guns stamped. Of course it could have been sold to some other American distributor as well; no way for me to know if it was sold to Stoeger or not; that is just conjecture based on some reading.


I think all these Luger books are great; I have the most faith in Jan Still's work; perhaps because it is the newest and the most detailed about German Parabellums.


I was wondering if the members think there would be any extra value to a 1920s commercial which is an alphabet model with an Eagle and safe and loaded. By the way, the finish is all original (the halo sort of guarantees that) and excellent except for a blemish on the barrel as though some ham fisted owner had held the barrel with a pair of pliers whilst hammering on the front sight to move it. (Oh the things people did!)


Anyway; that's all I know about this gun; hoping to get some idea of what forum members might think and what value might be.

[David Jackson]

Bill and I have the same book; Imperial Lugers pages 258 and fig. 84f page 273.

[Ron Wood]

David

Your guess that this is a commercial gun made 1922-1923 has a lot of merit. My only additional thought is that it has long been maintained that all bets are off on 1920 commercials. Given that Still says that the Alphabet commercials started with the "i" suffix, "j" and "k" follow close behind. To me this might place it in the '20-'22 timeframe. The 7.65mm caliber and barrel length also might lean toward the restrictions of the earlier date. However, the â??Safe/Loadedâ?� markings would lean toward â??23. Given the preponderance of the evidence, it sounds to me like the piece is genuine, and possibly unique. I would venture that it was made up of parts on hand, as 1920â??s were, using a left-over Eagle receiver, but incorporating the emerging â??Safe/Loadedâ?� parts of the 1923 timeframe, probably, as you have stated, for the American market. This might classify it as sort of a â??transitionâ?� piece. Donâ??t have any idea what the value may be, depends on how badly someone wants it. Considering its uniqueness, and the fact that you attest to the â??haloâ?� presence of an un-reworked piece, anything close to $1000 is probably reasonable. Wouldnâ??t it have been nice if it hadnâ??t been ham-handed?!! Thanks for finding a neat topic for speculation!!!

I have a 1920 Commercial .30 with Am Eagle on chamber. C/N proofs. Matching, Germany stamped. Ser. 34xxp. Was purchased by Montana rancher in 20s and carried on horse back in shoulder holster for many years and shows it. Safety is GESICHERT. A bit of an usual piece I believe.

[BILL]

As to value, condition and rarity are the two main ingredients. You know that it is an uncommon variation and you have seen the condtion. The 'Safe/Loaded' would make it more collectible to me and if you were to be able to procure it for approximately $1K you would most likely not go wrong. The condition would have to be good enough to compensate for the rarity of the 'safe/loaded' upscale in value. Of course I think just about any nice American Eagle is worth at least $1000 (so much for my value system).

[David Jackson]

Hello fellow forum users; and thanks for all the input! Based on what you are all saying I think this piece may be somewhat overpriced; I may buy it anyway though ...

I kind of like Eagles.

Interesting about the "p" suffix gun Art has too; an example perhaps a few years later but still pre Mauser.

Say Art; do you still have the holster?


David J.

[Marvin]

David,


I agree with you on buying the pistol. I have done the same thing and paid top dollar or above becasue I wanted the pistol. One thing for sure, they will increase in value so at soem point in time, the value will be more than what you paid for the pistol.


Like most everyone, I like bargains too, but sometimes they are difficult to come by. I have always said that if you like the pistol, have the money, buy it, enjoy it, and not worry about the cost!


Marvin

[John Sabato]

Hi John;


Take a look in a couple of places: US Test Trials 1900 Luger by Michael Reese; pages 28 to 32 and I quote, "... The holster was made to be worn on the right dise, butt forward. ..."


See Kenyon THE INTERNATIONAL PISTOL page 25 for another photo of a butt forward holster.


Then take a look at your Bender book, the chapter on US holsters for shots of more conventional appearing right handed holsters, particularly the Abercrombie & Fitch section.


Only thing wrong with what I am coming up with is that I am not finding any reference to a US marked conventional right hand holster ... commercial yes, US marked no.


Bender does have a shot of a holster made for Powell but that would go with a fat barrel gun and the one in the photo is not that. The right hand holster in the photo is a slightly different shape ...


I have no idea!


David J.

[David Jackson]

Hi Marvin;


You are right as rain on this! The money seems to come and go but the opportunity to be custodian of some rare or even just uncommon desireable object seems to come just once.


Did someone post about the one that got away?


I had an absolutely gorgeous 1900 Eagle for a little while but returned it because it was chambered for 9mm!


Turns out there was some sort of experimental 9mm cartridge development before the 9mm Parabellum and this gun could well have been a genuine item chambered for some hermporphradite 9mm which never reached production!


This piece is not that special; its nice and a little unusual though.


David J.