G.T. Snail drum arrived - what does it fit?

[spacecoast]

In short, almost everything I have. I tried it and it fits great in the following:

• 1918 Erfurt frame (9mm Artillery shooter)
• 1918 DWM (9mm shooter)
• 1906 American Eagle 9mm (s/n 55xxx)
• 1906 Swiss Cross in Shield (7.65mm)
• 1913 Erfurt (9mm)
• 1920s Commercial Safe and Loaded (89xxx) (7.65mm)
• 1906/34 Portuguese GNR (7.65mm)

Two guns it was a bit tight in (at the end of its travel) were both a 1906 and a 1908 DWM Bulgarian contract.

I previously reported that the drum would not fit into my 1920s Alphabet Commercial, but found that the issue is the right grip screw. If I back the screw out half a turn, the drum goes in fine and locks securely into place. I'm thinking the grip itself is a little thin on that side.

I even tried the drum in a couple of my Old Models, but couldn't get it to insert very far at all. I guess I need to try backing out the grip screws a bit on those.

[John Sabato]

You can either shorten the offending grip screw by polishing the end that is threaded until it is short enough that it doesn't cause the problem, or as an alternative, especially for old grips where the wood has been compressed by overtightening the grip screws, you can insert an appropriate size rubber O-ring on the screw which will help support the grip, while reducing the depth of the tightened screw...

[spacecoast]

OK, I've had a chance to tinker with the snail drum and have an observation and some questions -

Observation - as it came in the box, the spring was wound and secured at 32 rounds.

Question #1 - Is that the way it should have been? Or would you normally leave it unwound (and unloaded).

Question #2 - to wind the spring before loading, is there a preferred hand method? It seems like a very strong spring (maybe it relaxes over time) and I don't want to break something.

Question #3 - the strut says to put the top on first (over the boss) and then snap the delrin piece over the narrow area ahead of the cross bolt ear tabs. I adjusted the length of the strut to provide a snug fit with everything in place, but getting the strut back in place in the order prescribed seems to be very difficult. Is it OK to place the delrin piece first and then put the cup over the boss?

Question #4 - when I push the filler down and into place, the follower pops up out of the top of the magazine and I have to remove the lever. What do I need to do to ensure that doesn't happen?

Question #5 - I got the magazine filled and released the lever to allow the spring to settle on the rounds. But they were not easy to remove from the magazine, and didn't readily pop up when I did get one out. I finally rewound the magazine to "32" and allowed the untensioned rounds to fall out of the mag. Does this indicate a problem?

Sorry for so many questions... is there an FAQ for this?

[G.T.]

Hi Mark! It is a learning experience as we go, but sloooowwwww down and we'll try to get you flying straight and level! no problem on the questions, that's what I'm here for... As for the strut, yes, you can hook the plastic on the drum, and slide the top onto the aluminum stud.... I think you will find when you got that down to a smooth move, the follower will no longer pop out? It also does this with the originals... The winding handle is cocked and locked for loading the 32 rounds... you just have to be firm an deliberate when preloading the spring... it is strong out of necessity, it won't break, and if by some chance it does? Well, I'm still here! But it won't, it is good steel... Y0u can leave it either way, it won't hurt it, and it probably will not lose much strength..... You'll get into a rhythm after you figure out all the limits! Some like to load the first two rounds by hand, but I have found loading with the loader right from the start seems ot be less problematic? And, you'll hear the first round click or pop by the teardrop hole... mess with it some... About the only way you can hurt it is to let the handle slip when unloaded and fully cranked!!! ... keep after it, best to you, til...lat'r....GT

[G.T.]

When you have loaded the magazine to 32 rounds, and released the winding lever, you can get the rounds to settle by lightly tapping on the drum with a wood dowel or hammer handle... I usually just squeeze on the lever some while tapping it with my hand... rounds should settle and go tight against the feed lips and you can visually see it occurring... I don't over do it, just enough to get the round column settled and stacked against the feed lips... if you want to test the drum... you can load up some dummy rounds, (easy if your a re-loader!) and remove the firing pin from your Luger, and cycle them thru your Luger by hand... I do NOT recommend loaded rounds, as accidents can and probably will happen? So, no loaded stuff... Another way is to briskly snap the rounds out just like snapping your fingers?.. the speed and violence of the round leaving seems to have some degree of effect on the next round rising into place?... NOTE: this can change just about every time you load it?... Hit or miss, it will get more consistent as you become more consistent... Keep plugging away! ... When you get a BAD feeding jam, you will have to remove the drum cover.. you need to lock the winding lever fully tensioned before you take off the front screw and small cross bolt... it comes apart pretty easy, just go slow and be patient.. there is a learning curve... best to you, til...lat'r....GT...

[spacecoast]

GT -

Thanks for the tips, it looks like it will be another week before I can get to the range but will be sure to let everyone know how it works out.

By the way, I didn't realize that your "brand" would be on the loading tool as well as the drum. Do you make changes to the loader as well?

[DonVoigt]

Spacecoast,
I guess you missed my last post on your other thread:

"If you really want to try the drum with 7,65mm; just switch your upper to a frame that the drum fits!

Another "trick" to the loader, and I believe it is covered in the original manual of which you should have a copy in the box, is to load the first two rounds by hand- they require pressing the spring loaded follower stud in, while loading a round, then you have to manipulate the follower/round to get the second round in. When that is done, place the loader on the magazine, put the strut in place, and load more rounds, up to a total of 32.

Of course the drum is wound and the winder latched, before starting the loading process.

After the drum is loaded, remove the strut and loader, release the winder arm from its latch(slowly, and keep it under firm control). Tap the drum with your hand, a rubber mallet, or on a rug or something to "settle" the rounds in the magazine- this is important. Then if you are not going to use the drum right away, re-latch the arm in its slot to release the significant pressure from the guide lips on the drum."
__________________

I don't usually disagree with GT on these things, but none of my drums will load if I don't put the first two rounds in by hand, the button is not pushed in far enough by the loading tool to allow the button to clear the slot. I guess you could force it, but that is never a good sign to me.
Sounds like yours is pushed in far enough to let the follower move up, a difference in tolerances.

I store my drums with the spring unloaded if they are empty, and do not store a loaded drum more than over night. Springs don't like full compression, just a fact of life. If I load a drum for shooting, I will latch the arm into its slot to remove pressure from the magazine lips like I said above.

Yes, the follower will slip out if you do not keep it under control, it is a design "fault" and has nothing to do with your particular drum- just the way it is.

I use a rubber mallet to "settle up" the cartridge column. I have three of these reproduction mags and one just takes a shake with your hand, and the other two need a little tap.

You are way overthinking this, just play with it and learn. Do take it apart but follow GT's warning to wind and latch the spring before you open.

I personally do not like the thick red grease and have removed it and use Dupont's Teflon lube in the blue bottle. Works for me; but you must have some lube in the drum!

You should probably re-read all these posts and get the "hints" in your head, then practice loading and stripping cartridges. Use makes these drums work better.

I wear thin gloves or my hands get raw from the loading and unloading. Cartridges are hard to strip from the drum - at first quite hard , and get easier as the drum is emptied. I use a wooden dowel to push the out, but also run them through a pistol.

Do remove the striker and operate the toggle smartly.

Hope this helps!

I should have added that of the two or three shooters I have used with the drums, only my well worn and ugly Navy pistol is 100% with the drums.
The others will occasionally have a FTF or FTE; I don't know why - again just the way it is! I did shoot my original one time for 30 rounds, it is exactly the same- had one or two "problems"; the GT re-worked/improved drums are better than originals in my book!

[spacecoast]

Don -

Thanks a lot, I apologize for not paying better attention and going back to review once I had the drum in hand. To get the follower to stay in place last night prior to installing the loader I finally figured out that it was easier to hand load the first couple of rounds.

To take the drum apart (after winding), which center screw do I remove? The one on the winder side, or the one on the back side, or both?

[DonVoigt]

You have to remove the small screw and nut that is present at the "elbow", and the single screw in the center of the drum on the side opposite the winder(I would call that the front, as it points in the direction the sight does when installed).

Did you not get an English translation copy of the original manual in the box from Numrich?

[G.T.]

Hi to all! Don and I very seldom do things differently, but Don description of operation is an excellent method and achieves the same result when done correctly! As I'm dealing with a full revision for sale to the consumer, I revise the drums and the loader, to work as designed and they will, with some effort, load past the hold open tear drop, although, Don is most correct in that it does take more effort, and probably does put additional strain on the follower button... You will have to decide which way is best for you!
The loader is modified as well, the "magazine catch" is cut back internally to allow approximately .020" deeper engagement into the magazine catch notch... Also the took is "squished approx. .010" to better allow a tight fit to the magazine tube, and so the follower button and loader to work as designed and described above?
Don is also correct in that the red grease is messy and will probably be better replaced with the dry lube described, but this again is another owner operator choice as I found all the original Drums I repaired were filled with old dry caked on axil bearing grease, and I'm sure it was a necessary item for full and as dependable operation as possible,, Grease had some flow characteristics that dry lube hasn't? But, will kill the primers on commercial ammo! The springs are tough and will only take a set so far, but as Don mentioned, it probably is better stored relaxed, I set them at the max strength so maybe a little "set" ain't so bad anyway?..So by all means experiment...and, let us know good or bad! Don and I know one thing for sure, the drums can be made to work correctly! Lube, procedure, ammo and the Luger you are using all have a bearing on your overall success... Like Don has said before, once you run 32 rounds thru in an unbroken string, you will be all smiles! Puts you right back to 1918! maybe even a little mud will be required! ... best to all, til...lat'r.....GT BTW, the GT stamp on the drum is a bit faint on the drums sometimes... the die is large with a lot of surface area, and the metal a little springy so even with a bucking bar, the dies mark is a one shot deal... Just like real ones!!! (no, there are no GT marks on those!)

[spacecoast]

Did you not get an English translation copy of the original manual in the box from Numrich?

Yes I did, but as I recall it only shows the drum apart, not how to get it apart. But maybe I just need to look more closely. It will be interesting to see exactly what is going on inside, hopefully that will help me know better how to get it settled after loading and to operate reliably.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Yes I did, but as I recall it only shows the drum apart, not how to get it apart. But maybe I just need to look more closely. It will be interesting to see exactly what is going on inside, hopefully that will help me know better how to get it settled after loading and to operate reliably.

I didn't mean in reference to taking it apart, just in general.
I don't think it says anything about "settling" either; but I'm pretty sure it does mention loading the first round or two by hand.

I'd look, but I forgot where I put mine!

[spacecoast]

OK, I had to put the drum, loading tool and loading assist strut down for a few days but was able to spend some more time with them early this morning and I think I might actually have a chance of getting this to work. We'll find out when I get out to the range this weekend.

Like Don, I find it easier to load a round or two first by hand to discourage the follower from popping out the top of the magazine. I also used a drop or two of oil every few rounds per a how-to I read by George Anderson.

It was instructional to take apart the drum and see exactly what is going on inside. As usual, I managed to do things the hard way by forgetting to wind the spring before this morning's disassembly. It made for a bit of a greasy mess getting things back together (the issue being taming the mag spring back into place with some compression), but I managed to get it done and all seems well after a follow-up disassembly and re-assembly (after WINDING THE DRUM SPRING FIRST).

While I was in there I took a few pictures to hopefully enlighten some of you on the innards of the drum. You can see the generous amount of red grease inside. I believe that some of the areas where the bluing appears removed may be those polished by G.T. during the tuning process.

[DonVoigt]

Yes, those bright areas are "hand" work by GT, and critical to functioning!

[G.T.]

Although it may sound like a foreign language, once you have a drum staring you in the face... it all makes sense! .... Settling is the taking up, of all, under pressure, the extra room between the swing arm pushing the rounds, up to the feed lips restraining them!
If, when you finish loading the drum, you can apply some pressure, (squeeze!) against the winding lever, the whole ammo column will compress and realign any extra space that is available... you can get the same result by tapping on the drum with a wood dowel or hammer handle... But, the key point, is, the easier you can settle the rounds, (as in just hand pressure?) the better it will work!!!!!! If I received a drum... I would take it apart... and polish all the contact surfaces to a mirror finish!!!! I've already taken them to 320 or better..... any thing you polish further will help?... It's that simple... the ability of the drum to fit, and live / last, is already taken care of thru my revisions... FUNCTION??? Is a whole nother matter, depending on ammo, drum, and Luger... and you?.... Best to all, and the quest continues... best to my forum family, til...lat'r....GT...