Shanxi .45 Broomhandle

[Olle]

Just got this in a trade, I think I did good but would still want opinions on the value. It's crudely made, so I would think that this is one of the later manufacture/imports. The previous owner fired it, and said (not surprisingly) that it would misfeed and fire double/triple shots now and then. It obviously needs some tweaking to work right, but I don't know if it's worth the effort. Still, no import marks and near perfect condition. What do you think this is worth? Is it a collectible, or a conversation piece?

[Olle]

Some more pics...

[DonVoigt]

Definitely a collectible, conversation piece in my book.

The doubling should be fixable without a lot of trouble; the feeding maybe not.

I "always" wanted one of these; but just never took the leap.

If/when you get "tired" of it, let me know.

[Olle]

I'm definitely not tired of it yet. This gun really makes you feel like a man when you hold it, it's massive to say the least. If Arnold Schwarzenegger had a Broomhandle, this would be it!

It doesn't really fit into my collection, but it's a one of a kind gun that I might keep just for the hell of it.

[alvin]

"ballpark" value is $1200 - $1500.

But I did see people, including people with fine C96 collection, paying $4000-$5000 on these. I am not sure what's in their mind. These are new Shansei exported in 1980s. None of them (that I have met) works in range.

If you can make it work, say, you can shoot 10 rounds out without any problem, please post a youtube.com video. You fill a blank in this domain.

[alvin]

BTW, good C96 copy made by Chinese in 1920s through 1940s should work. Not many chances exist to test those. But I did test a Taku 7.63mm, I fired 20 rounds from it, it works perfectly and it is very accurate too.

No chance to fire an original .45ACP Shansei yet.

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by alvin

"ballpark" value is $1200 - $1500.

But I did see people, including people with fine C96 collection, paying $4000-$5000 on these. I am not sure what's in their mind. These are new Shansei exported in 1980s. None of them (that I have met) works in range.
If you can make it work, say, you can shoot 10 rounds out without any problem, please post a youtube.com video. You fill a blank in this domain.

"what's in their mind"? I think they're probably sure to get an original one, as it happened to me some years ago when I paid the equivalent of about 3500 bucks for one of them.
Why? Well very simple, it was my fault, I stupidly jumped at it when a renown gunshop-owner & collector proposed it to me as a purchase describing it as an original 1920 Shansei used by the river Shansei Police, one of the few survived ...
More than two years later I discovered that it was only a copy (however very nice) made in 1980s so I took it back to him and traded it for something else thank God without loosing any money. I was very lucky considered also the money involved simply because I dealt with a honest seller.
I post a picture of the gun.

[alvin]

From certain viewing angle, they are equivalent of "Post WWII Interarms Parabellum" in C96 domain. So, it still has come collector value. In the US, this is counted as C&R.

Original Shansei of 1920s is expensive.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

"what's in their mind"? I think they're probably sure to get an original one, as it happened to me some years ago when I paid the equivalent of about 3500 bucks for one of them.

I bet many people don't know that there is such a thing as this "re-reproduction". The previous owner didn't, he was under the impression that he had a $3,000 gun, so it took a while to convince him that this was not the case.

Originally Posted by alvin

In the US, this is counted as C&R.

Even the modern version?

[alvin]

Yes. Even the modern version is C&R. It's a collectible.

While playing this gun, there is a Chinese movie reflecting 2nd Sino-Japanese War on youtube.com (with English subtitle). This movie majorly based on historical events happened in Shansei at that time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgGaWNZFKEw

[TheRomanhistorian]

I, too, have one of these and they're fun. Like Alvin says I decided to view it (original or not) as a collectible in its own right and I didn't load mine up fully but I managed to get five rounds off in one go without a problem (a few times) but I was just testing to prove it worked before cleaning and boxing back up into my safe.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=34214 Here's my thread (not a great photographer so I am happy to accept the criticism!).

Michael

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by Olle

I bet many people don't know that there is such a thing as this "re-reproduction". The previous owner didn't, he was under the impression that he had a $3,000 gun, so it took a while to convince him that this was not the case.


Even the modern version?

Olle

You're absolutely right, when I told the person I bought mine from that he sold me only a reproduction he was simply shocked, and he got in touch with his german friend that he said was a "great connossieur" of broomhandles... so you see Olle, even that great connossieur that originally imported that Shansei, either was in bad faith or he wasn't such a great "connossieur" after all!

[alvin]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Olle

You're absolutely right, when I told the person I bought mine from that he sold me only a reproduction he was simply shocked, and he got in touch with his german friend that he said was a "great connossieur" of broomhandles... so you see Olle, even that great connossieur that originally imported that Shansei, either was in bad faith or he wasn't such a great "connossieur" after all!

This could be an excellent example of "self-contained system trap".

Usually, by viewing a collection, it's possible to estimate owner's knowledge level on certain type of a gun. It's simply impossible to know a gun's detail by just reading books, especially in broomhandle domain. Of course, it's also hard to know a type of gun's overall picture by just observing samples without reading books, that's like Indian story of blind men trying to describe how an elephant looks like by touching a few areas on elephant's body,,, but that's a different story... (Without numerous detail documented, is that good or bad? we never know -- Lugers have lots of details documented, of course there is good aspect of that, but also helped creating fakes at a higher level. Book authors, be aware of that)...

Say, he had a bunch of these, so he thought he knew something. That's not a unreasonable assumption. But there is a trap -- if all his samples are this type, he may fall into a "self-contained system trap". Say, all his samples are new repro, he compared them, even summarized out the common, the noticeable points, etc, etc, and he thought this is nice original, then, that's the result. He's still a great connossieur, but the context is repro.

So, it's important to exchange thought with others. And, trade guns directly or indirectly with others. Using latest Chinese political slogan that I read from news, this is called "sync with the world".

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by alvin

This could be an excellent example of "self-contained system trap".

Usually, by viewing a collection, it's possible to estimate owner's knowledge level on certain type of a gun. It's simply impossible to know a gun's detail by just reading books, especially in broomhandle domain. Of course, it's also hard to know a type of gun's overall picture by just observing samples without reading books, that's like Indian story of blind men trying to describe how an elephant looks like by touching a few areas on elephant's body,,, but that's a different story... (Without numerous detail documented, is that good or bad? we never know -- Lugers have lots of details documented, of course there is good aspect of that, but also helped creating fakes at a higher level. Book authors, be aware of that)...

Say, he had a bunch of these, so he thought he knew something. That's not a unreasonable assumption. But there is a trap -- if all his samples are this type, he may fall into a "self-contained system trap". Say, all his samples are new repro, he compared them, even summarized out the common, the noticeable points, etc, etc, and he thought this is nice original, then, that's the result. He's still a great connossieur, but the context is repro.

So, it's important to exchange thought with others. And, trade guns directly or indirectly with others. Using latest Chinese political slogan that I read from news, this is called "sync with the world".

I agree, being part of a Forum, is quite a big help too, as I would never be able to meet or talk with other 1911 - Luger - or broomhamdles enthusiasts, it makes me feel part of some sort of a "world wide community".