How Badly did I get taken? PIX Added - Page 2

John Sabato · 09-21-2005, 11:01 AM

Please take very high resolution (say 600 DPI) closeups of the inside of the grips as glare free as possible. At first impression I believe them to be reproduction grips of fairly recent manufacture. Luke Smithwick and I did the study on the original bakelite grips, and with proper photos I believe we can determine their originality status... Just so you have some idea what genuine bakelite grips are worth, a member of this forum, just paid over $200 for a reasonably nice pair on ebay in the last 72 hours.

Ron Wood · 09-21-2005, 11:56 AM

Big Norm,

The one with the Ã¢??reverse 3Ã¢?Â is the Russian extractor. It is the frame safety marking that is the same on both the Bulgarian and Russian Lugers. The frame inscription is in Bulgarian, therefore is meaningless in Russian (although I have heard that prior to 1920 the Cyrillic alphabet was the same for Russian and Bulgarian, so perhaps the safety marking would be the same). The interesting thing about these Ã¢??safetyÃ¢?Â markings is that unlike other Lugers that are really on safe when the marking is showing, it is the reverse situation on the Russian and Bulgarian Luger since the marking means Ã¢??fireÃ¢?Â and it is only on Ã¢??safeÃ¢?Â when the marking is covered!

There are extractors other than the ones on your list, some marked the same and some different. The language of Brazil is Portuguese so the Brazilian contract Lugers are also marked CARREGADA. The language of Bolivia on the other hand is Spanish so the Bolivian extractors are marked CARGADO.

The Dutch extractors are marked GELADEN, just like German Lugers, but the extractor is marked on both sides. Ã¢??RUSTÃ¢?Â is the safety marking.

The French Luger posted by Olivier is indeed rare as the author of the book stated. It is a 1903 transitional Luger and only 50 of them were produced. The CHARGÃ?? marked extractor is unique to this variation, as the later 1906 French Commercials were taken from regular commercial production and the extractors are marked GELADEN.

Except for the Turkish model, I am very fortunate to have examples of all of these extractors. The really neat part is, they are still in the Lugers.

Ron Wood · 09-21-2005, 05:26 PM

Whoops, I forgot about the Persian extractor. I do not have one of those either (I seem to be coming up short on those "repro" Lugers).

Big Norm · 09-22-2005, 12:44 AM

in John Walters book, "The Luger Book" , he identified my above described extractor as a Russian extractor (see page 239). Also on that page, he qualified his identification by saying:

"It is popularly believed that the surviving Russian guns are of 'Bulgarian' type, Owing to subtle differences between the two languages. However, as linguists have now pointed out, there was no differences at all between Russian and Bulgarian until the former was modernized in the early 1920s. Thus, when the Parabellums were supplied, the marks on the Russian and Bulgarian guns would have been identical. ".

So, if I read Mr. Walter correctly, MY EXTRACTORS are of both of pre-1920 Russian/Bulgarian vintage and Andys extractor MAY BE of Bulgarian post-1920 vintage.

It is nice to note that the extractor on the very rare French Luger has "CHARGE" on it and I thank Olivier for that contribution. But the picture that he supplied of the Bulgarian extractor was a little too small for my old eyes to see. Maybe someone who is good with digital photography can enlarge that picture?

In any case, I will be sending an email to Andy to see if he will want to work out a deal for his extractor to help me enlarge my small collection of extractors.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 09-22-2005, 01:07 AM

Ron,
I am sorry if it looks like I repeated your post. I posted about the same time that you did. Your comments posed another question to me. I purchased a 1936 Siamese artillery Luger this past weekend (bragging is good) and I just had to see if the marking on the extractor was unique. It is the usual "GELADEN". Maybe thats good because I would not have wanted to separate it from the gun.
Big Norm

Ron Wood · 09-22-2005, 02:27 AM

Big Norm,

Walter's statement "when the Parabellums were supplied, the marks on the Russian and Bulgarian guns would have been identical" is not accurate...only the frame safety markings were identical. There is not a common Russian/Bulgarian extractor. The Russian and Bulgarian extractors were always different. The 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Luger extractors were marked with the same marking as on Andy's Luger. There was only the 1906 Russian model with the extractor marked as your specimens and there were no post-1920 Bulgarian Lugers. It is possible that prior to 1920, the Russian and Bulgarian word for "fire" (phonetically "ah-go-in") was the same and therefore the characters are the same. I believe that the Bulgarian extractor translates as "full" and perhaps the marking on the Russian extractor is some other word (it has been suggested to me that it translates as "captured") and therefore would be spelled differently although written in the same pre-1920 Cyrillic alphabet. I hope that someone familiar with both languages can translate the respective extractor markings...I have always wondered exactly what they mean.

Your Siamese artillery is a rare find. I have never seen one. As I recall, the short barreled Siamese police had Siamese characters on the rear of the frame. Is that true for the Artillery model as well and are there any other distictive markings?

olivier5848 · 09-22-2005, 06:08 AM

Hallo to all and M.Big Norm
I have try to anlarge the scan of my book of the bulgarian extractor. I hope you can yet read it correctly. I m very sorry for your eyes (the book is: "Le Luger un pistolet de lÃ?Â©gende" writen by Luc Guillou and Georges Machtelinckx).
Have all a nice day full of Lugers.
Olivier

Vlim · 09-22-2005, 12:56 PM

Ehm,

The Dutch extractor isn't marked 'Rust' but 'Geladen' on both sides.
That is, because the Dutch word for Geladen is actually Geladen.

Big Norm · 09-22-2005, 09:04 PM

Ron,
I'll post something in the artillery section for my Siamese artillery Luger. Thanks for your valuable discussion on the extractors.
Big Norm

ajdrr · 09-23-2005, 03:36 PM

Great information. Thanks for all the opinions, I am happy to know that I may have stumbled onto a break-even or better. Makes this pistol unique.

Some more pictures of the grips, and a close up extractor.

Grips:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip4.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip5.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip2.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip3.jpg

More if desired...

Andy

Ponyman · 12-29-2005, 09:11 PM

Hi Andy -

Are you still here?

I'm looking at the photo of the left side of the frame, in your 9-19 post. There's a bit too much shadow at the back end, and I can't quite make out the characters under the thumb safety lever. Are they Roman letters, or Cyrillic (like the extractor)? If they are Cyrillic, the extractor may be properly matched to the frame! In which case, I hope you didn't sell it!!!!! Can you post a close-up photo of that part of the gun?????

~Dave

John Sabato · 12-30-2005, 10:16 AM

I need a closeup showing the entire back side of both grips taken perpendicular (directly at the grips) as close as you can get in clear focus in order to offer an educated opinion on whether or not they are genuine original Byf grips or reproductions. Thanks.

SteveM · 12-30-2005, 01:55 PM

I don't believe that those are BW grips simply because of the checkering. Take a good look at the third pic.

Snakeman · 12-31-2005, 12:12 AM

The frame says "GESICHERT".

09-21-2005, 11:01 AM	#21
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Please take very high resolution (say 600 DPI) closeups of the inside of the grips as glare free as possible. At first impression I believe them to be reproduction grips of fairly recent manufacture. Luke Smithwick and I did the study on the original bakelite grips, and with proper photos I believe we can determine their originality status... Just so you have some idea what genuine bakelite grips are worth, a member of this forum, just paid over $200 for a reasonably nice pair on ebay in the last 72 hours. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-21-2005, 11:56 AM	#22
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Big Norm, The one with the Ã¢??reverse 3Ã¢?Â is the Russian extractor. It is the frame safety marking that is the same on both the Bulgarian and Russian Lugers. The frame inscription is in Bulgarian, therefore is meaningless in Russian (although I have heard that prior to 1920 the Cyrillic alphabet was the same for Russian and Bulgarian, so perhaps the safety marking would be the same). The interesting thing about these Ã¢??safetyÃ¢?Â markings is that unlike other Lugers that are really on safe when the marking is showing, it is the reverse situation on the Russian and Bulgarian Luger since the marking means Ã¢??fireÃ¢?Â and it is only on Ã¢??safeÃ¢?Â when the marking is covered! There are extractors other than the ones on your list, some marked the same and some different. The language of Brazil is Portuguese so the Brazilian contract Lugers are also marked CARREGADA. The language of Bolivia on the other hand is Spanish so the Bolivian extractors are marked CARGADO. The Dutch extractors are marked GELADEN, just like German Lugers, but the extractor is marked on both sides. Ã¢??RUSTÃ¢?Â is the safety marking. The French Luger posted by Olivier is indeed rare as the author of the book stated. It is a 1903 transitional Luger and only 50 of them were produced. The CHARGÃ?? marked extractor is unique to this variation, as the later 1906 French Commercials were taken from regular commercial production and the extractors are marked GELADEN. Except for the Turkish model, I am very fortunate to have examples of all of these extractors. The really neat part is, they are still in the Lugers. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-21-2005, 05:26 PM	#23
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Whoops, I forgot about the Persian extractor. I do not have one of those either (I seem to be coming up short on those "repro" Lugers). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2005, 02:27 AM	#26
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Big Norm, Walter's statement "when the Parabellums were supplied, the marks on the Russian and Bulgarian guns would have been identical" is not accurate...only the frame safety markings were identical. There is not a common Russian/Bulgarian extractor. The Russian and Bulgarian extractors were always different. The 1906 and 1908 Bulgarian Luger extractors were marked with the same marking as on Andy's Luger. There was only the 1906 Russian model with the extractor marked as your specimens and there were no post-1920 Bulgarian Lugers. It is possible that prior to 1920, the Russian and Bulgarian word for "fire" (phonetically "ah-go-in") was the same and therefore the characters are the same. I believe that the Bulgarian extractor translates as "full" and perhaps the marking on the Russian extractor is some other word (it has been suggested to me that it translates as "captured") and therefore would be spelled differently although written in the same pre-1920 Cyrillic alphabet. I hope that someone familiar with both languages can translate the respective extractor markings...I have always wondered exactly what they mean. Your Siamese artillery is a rare find. I have never seen one. As I recall, the short barreled Siamese police had Siamese characters on the rear of the frame. Is that true for the Artillery model as well and are there any other distictive markings? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2005, 06:08 AM	#27
olivier5848 User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: France Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Bulgarian extractor Hallo to all and M.Big Norm I have try to anlarge the scan of my book of the bulgarian extractor. I hope you can yet read it correctly. I m very sorry for your eyes (the book is: "Le Luger un pistolet de lÃ?Â©gende" writen by Luc Guillou and Georges Machtelinckx). Have all a nice day full of Lugers. Olivier Attached Images

09-22-2005, 12:44 AM	#24
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	in John Walters book, "The Luger Book" , he identified my above described extractor as a Russian extractor (see page 239). Also on that page, he qualified his identification by saying: "It is popularly believed that the surviving Russian guns are of 'Bulgarian' type, Owing to subtle differences between the two languages. However, as linguists have now pointed out, there was no differences at all between Russian and Bulgarian until the former was modernized in the early 1920s. Thus, when the Parabellums were supplied, the marks on the Russian and Bulgarian guns would have been identical. ". So, if I read Mr. Walter correctly, MY EXTRACTORS are of both of pre-1920 Russian/Bulgarian vintage and Andys extractor MAY BE of Bulgarian post-1920 vintage. It is nice to note that the extractor on the very rare French Luger has "CHARGE" on it and I thank Olivier for that contribution. But the picture that he supplied of the Bulgarian extractor was a little too small for my old eyes to see. Maybe someone who is good with digital photography can enlarge that picture? In any case, I will be sending an email to Andy to see if he will want to work out a deal for his extractor to help me enlarge my small collection of extractors. Big Norm

09-22-2005, 01:07 AM	#25
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron, I am sorry if it looks like I repeated your post. I posted about the same time that you did. Your comments posed another question to me. I purchased a 1936 Siamese artillery Luger this past weekend (bragging is good) and I just had to see if the marking on the extractor was unique. It is the usual "GELADEN". Maybe thats good because I would not have wanted to separate it from the gun. Big Norm

09-22-2005, 12:56 PM	#28
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Ehm, The Dutch extractor isn't marked 'Rust' but 'Geladen' on both sides. That is, because the Dutch word for Geladen is actually Geladen.

09-22-2005, 09:04 PM	#29
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron, I'll post something in the artillery section for my Siamese artillery Luger. Thanks for your valuable discussion on the extractors. Big Norm

09-23-2005, 03:36 PM	#30
ajdrr User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Great information. Thanks for all the opinions, I am happy to know that I may have stumbled onto a break-even or better. Makes this pistol unique. Some more pictures of the grips, and a close up extractor. Grips: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip4.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip5.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip2.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgrip3.jpg More if desired... Andy

12-29-2005, 09:11 PM	#31
Ponyman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlantic County, NJ, USA Posts: 138 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Andy - Are you still here? I'm looking at the photo of the left side of the frame, in your 9-19 post. There's a bit too much shadow at the back end, and I can't quite make out the characters under the thumb safety lever. Are they Roman letters, or Cyrillic (like the extractor)? If they are Cyrillic, the extractor may be properly matched to the frame! In which case, I hope you didn't sell it!!!!! Can you post a close-up photo of that part of the gun????? ~Dave __________________ "The Constitution is intended for use by a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other." ~ John Quincy Adams

12-30-2005, 10:16 AM	#32
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I need a closeup showing the entire back side of both grips taken perpendicular (directly at the grips) as close as you can get in clear focus in order to offer an educated opinion on whether or not they are genuine original Byf grips or reproductions. Thanks. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-30-2005, 01:55 PM	#33
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	I don't believe that those are BW grips simply because of the checkering. Take a good look at the third pic.

12-31-2005, 12:12 AM	#34
Snakeman User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The frame says "GESICHERT".