Late Mauser small parts bluing

mrerick · 03-11-2012, 10:35 PM

I have a military proofed 42 dated Banner toggle Luger from early in the "g" block (715g) that has me pondering a bit.

It's been discussed here earlier just after I bought it.

I looked over it again the other night, and verified that the breech block was Stick Eagle over N proofed, while the receiver was E/135 military proofed.

I bought it as a re-blued gun. It has small parts that should be in the white. These include the recoil coupling link and the safety sear block bar. Both parts are deeply salt blued.

The color tone of the receiver looks deeper and more polished than the frame or barrel.

The pistol is so crisp and appears to have so little wear, handling or usage that I wonder why it would have been re-blued in the first place. The bore looks new. It's puzzling.

Has there ever been a record of the small parts like these being shipped from the factory as blued parts?

Marc

Thor · 03-11-2012, 11:45 PM

Frank is the Mauser expert, if he doesnt respond directly, or you get the answer from others, check with Frank via PM.

mrerick · 03-19-2012, 12:09 PM

Thanks Ted... Have not heard further since posting.

This pistol is a bit puzzling. The frame doesn't look re-blued. It's crisp and sharp and has what I would expect from an original blue finish.

I'll add some pictures here. The receiver does have a deeper more shiny shade of blue, and the E/N proofed toggle train has a similar finish. The edges of the toggle are slightly smoothed, so that (and the blued safety bar and recoil link) point to a re-blue at some point.

But the pistol is in such "new" condition (Including a pristine bore) that I wonder when it was done. The barrel to receiver witness mark also doesn't lineup perfectly.

From Joop's comments on Jan Still's forum, "out of sequence" Lugers made up from obsolete replacement parts in the May 1942 timeframe are known in my serial number range, and this is likely one of them.

I wonder if the re-bluing of these parts was done as part of the process of finishing off these final Lugers from Mauser. All the marks on this pistol look like they were done with original Mauser dies.

I'm now starting work to understand details of available archival material to see if it mentions anything.

Marc

John Sabato · 03-19-2012, 01:20 PM

Narc,

The gun does look reblued to me, but having said that, it very nicely done...

DavidJayUden · 03-19-2012, 02:04 PM

IMHO, re-bluing in itself does not require rounding edges, scrubing stamps, erasing tool marks. The novice gunsmith takes care of that part...
On this one some parts give the appearance of having been lightly (soda?) blasted prior to bluing.
dju

Neil Young · 03-19-2012, 02:16 PM

dju:
I'm interested in which parts you are referring to. I do see a difference in surface texture of the top of the breech block and the extractor. Is that it?

Thanks.

Neil

lugersrkewl · 03-19-2012, 02:18 PM

shes beautiful thanks for the pics

mrerick · 03-19-2012, 02:54 PM

Hi,

Thanks for observations... Yes - it does look re-blued to me also. The tone is different on the barrel / receiver / toggle train parts and the frame.

Some of the matte appearance of the parts is lighting, but the toggle train, receiver and barrel are noticeably shiny compared to the frame and trigger plate. The edges are sharper on the matte appearing parts.

Also, the toggle to recoil hook link is blued, it's retaining pin is blued and the safety sear block is blued. These parts should be in the white.

Since there is no wear on this pistol (tightest smooth receiver to frame fit, pristine bore), it makes me ask why this would have been re-finished in the first place.

Since it was likely made during a period when Mauser was gathering up parts from prior runs to complete the last military contract, I wonder if the work could have been done at Mauser as part of that process. Otherwise, why would someone re-finish an otherwise "new" pistol... If so, why only parts of it...

Marc

Ron Wood · 03-19-2012, 03:17 PM

I have to say that I am really torn by this one. I copied the photos and did some color correction on them to account for the lighting and the color balance being shifted by the red background. Either this gun is nearly stone mint or it is one of the best reblue/restoration examples I have seen. I am leaning toward original.

DavidJayUden · 03-19-2012, 03:27 PM

Neil:
I was looking more at the sideplate. Most that I have seen show some tool marks but that one has an even frosty look. Maybe a cast replacement?
Also on the right side (second photo) of the gun the entire frame looks blasted to me, sort of a satin blue. Certainly not the same as the top of the toggle, etc.
The finish on this gun sort of reminds me of the Interarms Parabellum guns.
Now maybe I'm just not up to speed on the Mauser Banner guns.
It is very nice and easy to look at!
dju

mrerick · 03-19-2012, 03:54 PM

I'm going to re-shoot pictures using improved lighting. Will post them.

I don't think that the side plate is cast. Here's a picture of the inside.

Marc

DavidJayUden · 03-19-2012, 04:26 PM

Should that trigger lever be blued? I only have rust blue guns at my immediate disposal, but they are all in the white. Also could you photo the finish on the trigger and surrounding areas, particularly the right side?
Thanks!
dju

John Sabato · 03-20-2012, 08:43 AM

For Ron Wood,

Ron, I based what I must emphasize as my OPINION on this "reproduction" on the original photos and was less concerned with the color correction as I was with what appears to be mildly rounded edges (rear toggle link bevels, upper receiver in the chamber area chamfers, sideplate edges ... and the lack of serial number halos on the frame... I have been wrong before, but I don't think so this time. YMMV... A first hand evaluation might tell a different story...

-John

Kitkat041836 · 03-20-2012, 10:34 AM

It looks real nice to me,but then I am into DWM as you know
they are rust blued,so can't help on this one.
Thanks George

Norme · 03-20-2012, 10:48 AM

Hi John, I wouldn't expect to see halos on a salt blued gun like this one. Regards, Norm

wlyon · 03-20-2012, 11:10 AM

With the blued white parts, witness marks and overall appearance my vote is for a nice reblue. If a bunch more of these show up may have to retract the reblue but not for now. Bill

lugerholsterrepair · 03-20-2012, 11:30 AM

Souldn't the sideplate trigger lever and pin be in the white on an original blued Mauser?

Ron Wood · 03-20-2012, 12:38 PM

In looking at the color corrected photos, most of the contours and edges look pretty good. The thing I find most disconcerting is what David pointed out, the "satin" appearance of the frame, particularly on the right side. But it doesn't show up nearly as satin on some of the close up shots so I don't know what to think. Sure would like to have gun in hand. Perhaps photos taken on a neutral background in natural light might help.

alanint · 03-20-2012, 12:40 PM

I still feel that the "scallops" on each side of the receiver behind the barrel lack the crisp, sharp edges that an original, factory blued gun would have. Just enough is missing to indicate a careful rebluing.

DavidJayUden · 03-20-2012, 12:58 PM

I'd really like to see close ups of the trigger area, right side. To me it look way too evenly finished to be an orig. finish.
This is kind of fun...
dju

03-11-2012, 10:35 PM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Late Mauser small parts bluing I have a military proofed 42 dated Banner toggle Luger from early in the "g" block (715g) that has me pondering a bit. It's been discussed here earlier just after I bought it. I looked over it again the other night, and verified that the breech block was Stick Eagle over N proofed, while the receiver was E/135 military proofed. I bought it as a re-blued gun. It has small parts that should be in the white. These include the recoil coupling link and the safety sear block bar. Both parts are deeply salt blued. The color tone of the receiver looks deeper and more polished than the frame or barrel. The pistol is so crisp and appears to have so little wear, handling or usage that I wonder why it would have been re-blued in the first place. The bore looks new. It's puzzling. Has there ever been a record of the small parts like these being shipped from the factory as blued parts? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-11-2012, 11:45 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Frank is the Mauser expert, if he doesnt respond directly, or you get the answer from others, check with Frank via PM. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

03-19-2012, 12:09 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Thanks Ted... Have not heard further since posting. This pistol is a bit puzzling. The frame doesn't look re-blued. It's crisp and sharp and has what I would expect from an original blue finish. I'll add some pictures here. The receiver does have a deeper more shiny shade of blue, and the E/N proofed toggle train has a similar finish. The edges of the toggle are slightly smoothed, so that (and the blued safety bar and recoil link) point to a re-blue at some point. But the pistol is in such "new" condition (Including a pristine bore) that I wonder when it was done. The barrel to receiver witness mark also doesn't lineup perfectly. From Joop's comments on Jan Still's forum, "out of sequence" Lugers made up from obsolete replacement parts in the May 1942 timeframe are known in my serial number range, and this is likely one of them. I wonder if the re-bluing of these parts was done as part of the process of finishing off these final Lugers from Mauser. All the marks on this pistol look like they were done with original Mauser dies. I'm now starting work to understand details of available archival material to see if it mentions anything. Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-19-2012, 01:20 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Narc, The gun does look reblued to me, but having said that, it very nicely done... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-19-2012, 02:16 PM	#6
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 540 Thanks: 546 Thanked 438 Times in 165 Posts	dju: I'm interested in which parts you are referring to. I do see a difference in surface texture of the top of the breech block and the extractor. Is that it? Thanks. Neil __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

03-19-2012, 02:04 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	IMHO, re-bluing in itself does not require rounding edges, scrubing stamps, erasing tool marks. The novice gunsmith takes care of that part... On this one some parts give the appearance of having been lightly (soda?) blasted prior to bluing. dju

03-19-2012, 02:18 PM	#7
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	shes beautiful thanks for the pics

03-19-2012, 02:54 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi, Thanks for observations... Yes - it does look re-blued to me also. The tone is different on the barrel / receiver / toggle train parts and the frame. Some of the matte appearance of the parts is lighting, but the toggle train, receiver and barrel are noticeably shiny compared to the frame and trigger plate. The edges are sharper on the matte appearing parts. Also, the toggle to recoil hook link is blued, it's retaining pin is blued and the safety sear block is blued. These parts should be in the white. Since there is no wear on this pistol (tightest smooth receiver to frame fit, pristine bore), it makes me ask why this would have been re-finished in the first place. Since it was likely made during a period when Mauser was gathering up parts from prior runs to complete the last military contract, I wonder if the work could have been done at Mauser as part of that process. Otherwise, why would someone re-finish an otherwise "new" pistol... If so, why only parts of it... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-19-2012, 03:17 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I have to say that I am really torn by this one. I copied the photos and did some color correction on them to account for the lighting and the color balance being shifted by the red background. Either this gun is nearly stone mint or it is one of the best reblue/restoration examples I have seen. I am leaning toward original. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-19-2012, 03:27 PM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Neil: I was looking more at the sideplate. Most that I have seen show some tool marks but that one has an even frosty look. Maybe a cast replacement? Also on the right side (second photo) of the gun the entire frame looks blasted to me, sort of a satin blue. Certainly not the same as the top of the toggle, etc. The finish on this gun sort of reminds me of the Interarms Parabellum guns. Now maybe I'm just not up to speed on the Mauser Banner guns. It is very nice and easy to look at! dju

03-19-2012, 03:54 PM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I'm going to re-shoot pictures using improved lighting. Will post them. I don't think that the side plate is cast. Here's a picture of the inside. Marc Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-19-2012, 04:26 PM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Should that trigger lever be blued? I only have rust blue guns at my immediate disposal, but they are all in the white. Also could you photo the finish on the trigger and surrounding areas, particularly the right side? Thanks! dju

03-20-2012, 08:43 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	For Ron Wood, Ron, I based what I must emphasize as my OPINION on this "reproduction" on the original photos and was less concerned with the color correction as I was with what appears to be mildly rounded edges (rear toggle link bevels, upper receiver in the chamber area chamfers, sideplate edges ... and the lack of serial number halos on the frame... I have been wrong before, but I don't think so this time. YMMV... A first hand evaluation might tell a different story... -John

03-20-2012, 10:34 AM	#14
Kitkat041836 RIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 195 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 18 Posts	It looks real nice to me,but then I am into DWM as you know they are rust blued,so can't help on this one. Thanks George

03-20-2012, 10:48 AM	#15
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi John, I wouldn't expect to see halos on a salt blued gun like this one. Regards, Norm

03-20-2012, 11:10 AM	#16
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,614 Thanks: 3,140 Thanked 2,519 Times in 939 Posts	With the blued white parts, witness marks and overall appearance my vote is for a nice reblue. If a bunch more of these show up may have to retract the reblue but not for now. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-20-2012, 11:30 AM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Souldn't the sideplate trigger lever and pin be in the white on an original blued Mauser? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-20-2012, 12:38 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	In looking at the color corrected photos, most of the contours and edges look pretty good. The thing I find most disconcerting is what David pointed out, the "satin" appearance of the frame, particularly on the right side. But it doesn't show up nearly as satin on some of the close up shots so I don't know what to think. Sure would like to have gun in hand. Perhaps photos taken on a neutral background in natural light might help. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-20-2012, 12:40 PM	#19
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I still feel that the "scallops" on each side of the receiver behind the barrel lack the crisp, sharp edges that an original, factory blued gun would have. Just enough is missing to indicate a careful rebluing.

03-20-2012, 12:58 PM	#20
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd really like to see close ups of the trigger area, right side. To me it look way too evenly finished to be an orig. finish. This is kind of fun... dju