Malfunctioning Toggle....Help!

135C/C · 02-14-2010, 03:43 AM

I finally got a Luger.....nothing unusual, just a reblued 1914 DWM shooter that I probably paid $100 or $200 too much for. But it looks good (other than poor aftermarket grips), is "mostly" matching, and most importantly, is "mine"

.

This is what's going on:

If you slowly bring the toggle forward, spring tension will not completely close the breech. To close it the last 3/16"- 1/4" or so, you have to lightly push down or tap on the toggle. It will only "spring" closeed the last 1/16". If you release the toggle from the fully rearward position, the centrifigual force will fully and strongly close the breech. With the breech fully closed, you can pull the toggle with VERY LITTLE tension fealt (if any) until the breach is open 3/16"- 1/4". I've never owned a Luger, so i don't know if this is normal op's or not.

I took it to the range to test fire it and had issues with the Breech and Toggle. After the first shot the sight picture looked "odd". The cause was the breech wasn't fully closed. Pushed down on the top of the Toggle (very little pressure was needed....more of a "tap") to close the breech the last 1/8" and fired again with the same issue. Every time I fired I had to close the breech fully to fire again. I also did the masking tape to the back of the frame to check for any battering by the rear of the Toggle. I was suspicious due to some out of place bare metal marks/nicks at the Frame/Toggle area. My suspicions were correct and the tape was usually mashed to goo or transfered to the Toggle at the previously nicked spots after just one shot. I only fired it 15 times, 5 rounds each of Winchester White Box, Blazer Brass, and Federal....all of them caused the same issues with the breech not fully closing and the Togggle/Frame contact.

I suspect I may have a weak or short mainspring. Or do you think I may have other issues?

The guy i got it from has a 3 day inspection period, and my first instinct is to send it back. But I got to thinking that if it's just a mainspring issue, I can take care of it for a $15 spring kit as opposed to paying to ship it back AND bite the original shipping cost which would combine to between $50-$60.

Your thoughts and or advice?

policeluger · 02-14-2010, 04:58 AM

The toggle spring is the first thing I would change, good trouble shooting, but also make sure the gun is clean and well oiled.....welcome to forum

alvin · 02-14-2010, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 135C/C

If you slowly bring the toggle forward, spring tension will not completely close the breech. To close it the last 3/16"- 1/4" or so, you have to lightly push down or tap on the toggle. It will only "spring" closeed the last 1/16". If you release the toggle from the fully rearward position, the centrifigual force will fully and strongly close the breech. With the breech fully closed, you can pull the toggle with VERY LITTLE tension fealt (if any) until the breach is open 3/16"- 1/4".

The behavior as described is exactly correct on Luger. I did not see any problem. Welcome to the forum!

lugerholsterrepair · 02-14-2010, 10:17 AM

Ron, Congratulations on your shooter Luger. I would do exactly as you are thinking. Put in a spring kit. This MAY solve the problem but it may not for a couple of reasons I can think of.

Depending on which parts are mismatched. Is the toggle/bolt mismatched to the barrel reciever? When you dismantle the pistol and re insert the bolt to the top cannon, is it a very tight fit?

Also, you say the pistol has been reblued. The Germans left the inside frame rails that slide against each other..polished and in the white, no blue because they tended to spall against each other during fireing and cause just the problem you are experiencing. This may be another area you might consider.

Good Luck!
Jerry Burney

135C/C · 02-15-2010, 05:54 AM

Thanks for the welcomes

and keep the advice coming.

To answer some questions:

I disassembled to check for cleanliness and re-oiled before I fired it.

All parts that make the upper receiver/barrel assembly appear to match. Frame, barrel, both Toggle sections, the ejector/extractor, firing pin....you name it. The only marked pieces I believe aren't original to the gun are the Takedown Lever and Sideplate.

When it was reblued the siderails and bearing surfaces weren't spared. The bluing is beginning to wear at certain areas from action operation though.

When the cannon is assembled to the upper receiver, there is no evidence of binding and feels "good". In fact, there is no evidence of binding in any moving parts at all.

For now I'm thinking that a Wolff spring kit, and if necessary, VERY conservative use of emery cloth on the rail bearing surfaces might get this to a reliable shooter.

Anything else?

Norme · 02-15-2010, 08:25 AM

Dear Ron, I think the words "emery cloth" sent shudders down every Luger collector's spine. By all means change the springs (saving the originals) and use a good quality gun oil - that should do it. Regards, Norm

Thor · 02-15-2010, 08:49 AM

If the main spring is weak the ejection is probably more robust than usual. This condition also puts unnecessary extra stress on the frame ears and ejector. Sounds like a weak mainspring and a strong firing pin spring. Get a factory replacement spring from Wolff, but dont get the +10% spring. Just before the action closes it begins to compress the firing pin spring, that is what it sounds like is preventing it from closing. On a Luger that has the right spring set up, you can just crack the action and the firing pin spring will hold it open until you release the firing pin spring compression by pulling the trigger. A normal spring set up would close the action completely by the firing sequence where the toggle is going all the way back and up. The main spring is the first thing I would replace and try the range trip again.

policeluger · 02-15-2010, 09:51 AM

never ever sand the rail, even ever so slight.....hell ever 1911 in the world is that way and no one sands them down......a little light application of gun grease and you should be good to go.....

135C/C · 02-15-2010, 05:35 PM

.....emery cloth?! Who said emery cloth??

Thanks and point taken.

I attached a pic of the rear of the frame. It's not the best, but you can get some idea of the contact being made.

I contacted the seller about the toggle/breech issue and a possibly cosmetic (?) crack. The seller has since contacted me and offered to refund my money, shipping, and the cost to ship it back to him.

I just posted about the crack issue on the same gun in the Military P-08 Forum under the title "Is this Crack in the frame "normal"?" @ http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23559

If you guys who have been so helpful take a look at that post and chime in with any thoughts or advice I'd greatly appreciate it.

policeluger · 02-15-2010, 08:16 PM

This can be tig welded and re-blued if you so incline........I would go for the refund....let us know if we can help

135C/C · 02-15-2010, 11:33 PM

Thanks for the advice guys. The functioning problems might have been fixable, but judging from the responses I got on the "Military" forum I got when I asked about the crack, it is most definitely NOT normal. I will be sending the pistol back to the seller. He seems like a straight up guy and wants to make everything right.

On the hunt AGAIN for a Luger......

Great site and thanks again!

02-14-2010, 03:43 AM	#1
135C/C User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Kansas Posts: 18 Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Malfunctioning Toggle....Help! I finally got a Luger.....nothing unusual, just a reblued 1914 DWM shooter that I probably paid $100 or $200 too much for. But it looks good (other than poor aftermarket grips), is "mostly" matching, and most importantly, is "mine" . This is what's going on: If you slowly bring the toggle forward, spring tension will not completely close the breech. To close it the last 3/16"- 1/4" or so, you have to lightly push down or tap on the toggle. It will only "spring" closeed the last 1/16". If you release the toggle from the fully rearward position, the centrifigual force will fully and strongly close the breech. With the breech fully closed, you can pull the toggle with VERY LITTLE tension fealt (if any) until the breach is open 3/16"- 1/4". I've never owned a Luger, so i don't know if this is normal op's or not. I took it to the range to test fire it and had issues with the Breech and Toggle. After the first shot the sight picture looked "odd". The cause was the breech wasn't fully closed. Pushed down on the top of the Toggle (very little pressure was needed....more of a "tap") to close the breech the last 1/8" and fired again with the same issue. Every time I fired I had to close the breech fully to fire again. I also did the masking tape to the back of the frame to check for any battering by the rear of the Toggle. I was suspicious due to some out of place bare metal marks/nicks at the Frame/Toggle area. My suspicions were correct and the tape was usually mashed to goo or transfered to the Toggle at the previously nicked spots after just one shot. I only fired it 15 times, 5 rounds each of Winchester White Box, Blazer Brass, and Federal....all of them caused the same issues with the breech not fully closing and the Togggle/Frame contact. I suspect I may have a weak or short mainspring. Or do you think I may have other issues? The guy i got it from has a 3 day inspection period, and my first instinct is to send it back. But I got to thinking that if it's just a mainspring issue, I can take care of it for a $15 spring kit as opposed to paying to ship it back AND bite the original shipping cost which would combine to between $50-$60. Your thoughts and or advice?

02-14-2010, 10:17 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Ron, Congratulations on your shooter Luger. I would do exactly as you are thinking. Put in a spring kit. This MAY solve the problem but it may not for a couple of reasons I can think of. Depending on which parts are mismatched. Is the toggle/bolt mismatched to the barrel reciever? When you dismantle the pistol and re insert the bolt to the top cannon, is it a very tight fit? Also, you say the pistol has been reblued. The Germans left the inside frame rails that slide against each other..polished and in the white, no blue because they tended to spall against each other during fireing and cause just the problem you are experiencing. This may be another area you might consider. Good Luck! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-15-2010, 08:49 AM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	If the main spring is weak the ejection is probably more robust than usual. This condition also puts unnecessary extra stress on the frame ears and ejector. Sounds like a weak mainspring and a strong firing pin spring. Get a factory replacement spring from Wolff, but dont get the +10% spring. Just before the action closes it begins to compress the firing pin spring, that is what it sounds like is preventing it from closing. On a Luger that has the right spring set up, you can just crack the action and the firing pin spring will hold it open until you release the firing pin spring compression by pulling the trigger. A normal spring set up would close the action completely by the firing sequence where the toggle is going all the way back and up. The main spring is the first thing I would replace and try the range trip again. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-15-2010, 05:35 PM	#9
135C/C User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Kansas Posts: 18 Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.....emery cloth?! Who said emery cloth?? Thanks and point taken. I attached a pic of the rear of the frame. It's not the best, but you can get some idea of the contact being made. I contacted the seller about the toggle/breech issue and a possibly cosmetic (?) crack. The seller has since contacted me and offered to refund my money, shipping, and the cost to ship it back to him. I just posted about the crack issue on the same gun in the Military P-08 Forum under the title "Is this Crack in the frame "normal"?" @ http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=23559 If you guys who have been so helpful take a look at that post and chime in with any thoughts or advice I'd greatly appreciate it. Attached Thumbnails

02-14-2010, 04:58 AM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	The toggle spring is the first thing I would change, good trouble shooting, but also make sure the gun is clean and well oiled.....welcome to forum

02-15-2010, 05:54 AM	#5
135C/C User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Kansas Posts: 18 Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the welcomes and keep the advice coming. To answer some questions: I disassembled to check for cleanliness and re-oiled before I fired it. All parts that make the upper receiver/barrel assembly appear to match. Frame, barrel, both Toggle sections, the ejector/extractor, firing pin....you name it. The only marked pieces I believe aren't original to the gun are the Takedown Lever and Sideplate. When it was reblued the siderails and bearing surfaces weren't spared. The bluing is beginning to wear at certain areas from action operation though. When the cannon is assembled to the upper receiver, there is no evidence of binding and feels "good". In fact, there is no evidence of binding in any moving parts at all. For now I'm thinking that a Wolff spring kit, and if necessary, VERY conservative use of emery cloth on the rail bearing surfaces might get this to a reliable shooter. Anything else?

02-15-2010, 08:25 AM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Dear Ron, I think the words "emery cloth" sent shudders down every Luger collector's spine. By all means change the springs (saving the originals) and use a good quality gun oil - that should do it. Regards, Norm

02-15-2010, 09:51 AM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	never ever sand the rail, even ever so slight.....hell ever 1911 in the world is that way and no one sands them down......a little light application of gun grease and you should be good to go.....

02-15-2010, 08:16 PM	#10
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	This can be tig welded and re-blued if you so incline........I would go for the refund....let us know if we can help

02-15-2010, 11:33 PM	#11
135C/C User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Kansas Posts: 18 Thanks: 14 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the advice guys. The functioning problems might have been fixable, but judging from the responses I got on the "Military" forum I got when I asked about the crack, it is most definitely NOT normal. I will be sending the pistol back to the seller. He seems like a straight up guy and wants to make everything right. On the hunt AGAIN for a Luger...... Great site and thanks again!