Opinions Wanted

Marvin · 11-19-2001, 07:48 AM

Hello All,

I have posted this question on the "Sister" P.38 Forum and I thought it would be apprropriate to post here also since some of you may not visit the P.38 Forum.

As most of you know, the "Asterisk" stamp shows up on a number of different weapons, bayonets, machine guns, etc. It seems to be most prevelent on the P.38 pistols, but it also is on the Luger. There has never been any documented answer to what this stamp really means. So far, they are theorys and some of them are very plausable and some are not.

Orv Reichert, the well know P.38 expert, feels it is a stamp for a rejected part which was reworked and then passed the Waffenamt inspection. This is probably the most recognized explanation. What do you folks think this "Asterisk" means? These will be opinions only and it may make for a good discussion. I do have one Luger with this stamp on the barrel and Jan Still shows a photo in his book on Third Reich Lugers.

I have one little theory that has been discussed in NAPCA a couple of years ago and I will give mine after others have posted theirs. I hope John Dunkle can answer this; was the "Asterisk" ever stamped on Kreighoff Lugers?

Let's have some fun with these theorys and see what pops out of the woods with ideas.

Marvin

11-19-2001, 08:09 AM

Marvin, I wouldn't presume to conterdict Orv, as he really is Mr.P38, but I've alway believed that the asterisk mark was a another variant, rather than the simple dot, of a hardness test stamp, used at Mauser during this period.

John D. · 11-19-2001, 08:40 AM

Marvin asked: "was the "Asterisk" ever stamped on Kreighoff Lugers?".

So far - one HK that I am aware of was reported as having the "*". However, I do not believe it was authenticated? Maybe someone will have additional info on that and offer it forward. HK did use a number of rejection marks including a 4-point star, 5-point star and a "A" inside a circle...

But for whatever the "*" denotes - it doesn't appear on any HK produced Lugers that I am aware have been authenticated..??

G.T. · 11-19-2001, 09:41 AM

Just a thought, but,...The asterisk appears a lot on the cyq P.38's, as it is rumored that spreewerk had more than a little trouble with fit & quality control, perhaps it denotes a repair or retrofit, and as such would support Orv's theory! till....later....G.T.

Marvin · 11-19-2001, 10:38 AM

John,

Thanks for the information on the "Asterisk" on the Kreighoff Lugers. I have never seen it stamped on one in any of the current books and I knew you would know this answer. IF this was a reject stamp, I would understand that Kreighoff may not would have used this stamp since they did used Luftwaffe inspection stamps.

I paln to announce my theory tomorrow, if all goes well at work, and let all of you cut it to pieces. As I said, these are all theorys, and is interesting to get differnt opinions.

Marvin

bill m · 11-19-2001, 11:02 AM

Hi,

Some think the "*" mark is a reject mark and some think it is a hardness mark. I think both opinions are correct, depending on what you are looking at. I feel they do not mean the same thing on a P.38 and a Luger. A few years ago I had a 1940/42 with the "*" on the barrel and I asked about everyone I could think of what this was. As I recall, just about everyone told me they thought they were a hardness test on Lugers, done on batches of from 10-100, at random, to check the hardness of the barrel for consistancy and quality. So my theory is a hardness test on Lugers and a reject mark on P.38's.

John Sabato · 11-19-2001, 12:41 PM

Because there are certainly no "strongly opinionated" people on this forum

-regards,

John

PS- sorry I can't add anything to the speculation, as I have only heard the same stories that the others have already mentioned... I can't wait to hear your NEW theory! This should be a GREAT thread!

lugerholsterrepair · 11-19-2001, 02:20 PM

Marvin, I would think that any hardness question would be taken care of by the proofs on the right side of the cannon. There is where the Germans indicated the tests for hardness. I would have to look it up but one of the three to five proof marks in this area is for hardness of the reciever...not the frame. If the Germans were to mark for hardness on every part there would be many more proofs than there are already. As with many American weapons the only part specifically hardned was the reciever.Just Idle speculation...Jerry

Marvin · 11-19-2001, 07:12 PM

Bill,

Very interesting about the Luger and P.38 having different meanings; i had never thought of this! Since I opened this "can of worms", let me ask you about the "Asterisk" being used on other weapons produced during this era. I have seen photos of it on a K98k bayonet, and a machinegun (MG-15 I think). I know this is a tough question, but I value your opinion.

I realize this stamp is more prevelent on the P.38 for some reason, but not often seen on the Luger. I have seen the photos in Still's books, and the one I have is the only one I have ever actually seen. It is stamped on the barrel. If things don't get crazy at the plant tomorrow, I will post my "wild theory".

marvin

Steve Lempitski · 11-19-2001, 08:03 PM

Possibly WW2's equivalent of the WW1 'rc' stamp for factory refurbish?

11-19-2001, 09:01 PM

Marvin I have a third issue Zero Series Banner P38 with mismatched barrel approximately 300 numbers higher than the rest of the numbers on the gun. The barrel has the asterisk stamped right next to the serial number on the front of the barrel. The asteris was it appears used at the beginning of P38 production. Cannot give exact serial number as visitig son in Portlandf OR.

Marvin · 11-20-2001, 07:29 AM

Steve,

I was hoping someone would come up with this opinion! I have wondered if it was a rework mark myself. If the Germans did this in WWI, why woulod this not be the case in WWII??? What do others think about this oipinion?

Marvin

Marvin · 11-20-2001, 07:32 AM

Tracy,

Without checking in Buxton's book for a better answer, I think the asterisk was starting in mid/late 1943 and then became a more prevelent as the war progressed. They are still not real common, but not rare. Steve's opinion about a rework/rejection mark like the Crown/RC could be possibility, but again this is just an opinion.

Marvin

lugerholsterrepair · 11-20-2001, 10:59 AM

Marvin, The Germans used a dot to indicate the rework of the holdopen added. This dot can be found on the right side of the frame.Mostly I have seen it on 1908's that did not originally have a hold open and when it was added the dot was placed to indicate it without opening up the pistol.I question why a barrell replacement would require such an indicator. Or any other part replaced for that matter. Serial numbers or the lack of would generally take care of that . Any other minor part would not need an indicator if it was processed thru the system and passed inspection. Jerry

Johnny Peppers · 11-20-2001, 11:24 AM

A dot? Isn't this where the frame was drilled and a pin inserted for the holdopen device?

11-20-2001, 12:42 PM

Jerry, The "dot" that you see on PO8s that have had a later HO added, is the cross pin inserted in the frame to hold in the hold open. Just below this "dot" should be a crown over a letter, indicating the name of the inspector who checked this work.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-20-2001, 05:55 PM

Well like an idiot I always assumed it was an inspection mark but as you say it is for the pin. you learn something every day if your not carefull. Jerry

bill m · 11-20-2001, 07:36 PM

Hi,

I strongly disagree with a refurbish mark. If that was the case it would have a code 42 or S/42 to indicate a replacement, and possibly not a serial number. These barrels are all serial numbered, with a suffix, and I feel are the original issued barrel. They have been inspected or tested, and marked with the "*". These are new Lugers and they saw no refurbishing at this time. I would think the only thing this mark could mean was either as I stated before, a hardness test, or a out of tolerance mark, (like not being hard enough, or too fat a barrel) or a special issue mark -- (like special forces), or a mark of special issue (to Africa Corp). I still feel the mark means different things on different items and the hardness test seems the most logical to me at this time.

11-22-2001, 12:06 AM

In my Opinion the "*" is unsuitable as a hardness test probe.

Hardness testing is performed with a conical probe calibrated for depth of penetration as an indicator of relative hardness to preset standards.

Usually Brinnel Scale.

An object such as an "*" , has no linear or other progressive penetration capability and would be impossible to calibrate.

Sorry to burst this balloon but the answer is elsewhere !

Viggos Engineering Facts #1 ( ha ha )

My best judgement ***

ViggoG

bill m · 11-22-2001, 01:08 AM

Hi Viggo,

Hope you are feeling better and are having a speedy recovery.

I agree that the "*" is not a hardness test probe in itself. It very well could be a mark to show that the barrel was checked for hardness, consistancy, and tolerance. I do not have one of these "*" marked Lugers now, but this mark could have been done before assembly was completed. The test probe mark could be hidden above the threads for instance, done before assembly of the barrel, with the "*" added to the right side of the barrel to show it had been checked. Actually, I have no idea where you would check the hardness of barrel-- so where would you?

So Viggo, if not a hardness mark, and not a rejection mark, then what is your opinion of what it is?

11-19-2001, 08:09 AM	#2
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Opinions Wanted Marvin, I wouldn't presume to conterdict Orv, as he really is Mr.P38, but I've alway believed that the asterisk mark was a another variant, rather than the simple dot, of a hardness test stamp, used at Mauser during this period.

11-19-2001, 08:40 AM	#3
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted Marvin asked: "was the "Asterisk" ever stamped on Kreighoff Lugers?". So far - one HK that I am aware of was reported as having the "". However, I do not believe it was authenticated? Maybe someone will have additional info on that and offer it forward. HK did use a number of rejection marks including a 4-point star, 5-point star and a "A" inside a circle... But for whatever the "" denotes - it doesn't appear on any HK produced Lugers that I am aware have been authenticated..??

11-19-2001, 09:41 AM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted Just a thought, but,...The asterisk appears a lot on the cyq P.38's, as it is rumored that spreewerk had more than a little trouble with fit & quality control, perhaps it denotes a repair or retrofit, and as such would support Orv's theory! till....later....G.T.

11-19-2001, 10:38 AM	#5
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted John, Thanks for the information on the "Asterisk" on the Kreighoff Lugers. I have never seen it stamped on one in any of the current books and I knew you would know this answer. IF this was a reject stamp, I would understand that Kreighoff may not would have used this stamp since they did used Luftwaffe inspection stamps. I paln to announce my theory tomorrow, if all goes well at work, and let all of you cut it to pieces. As I said, these are all theorys, and is interesting to get differnt opinions. Marvin

11-19-2001, 11:02 AM	#6
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted Hi, Some think the "" mark is a reject mark and some think it is a hardness mark. I think both opinions are correct, depending on what you are looking at. I feel they do not mean the same thing on a P.38 and a Luger. A few years ago I had a 1940/42 with the "" on the barrel and I asked about everyone I could think of what this was. As I recall, just about everyone told me they thought they were a hardness test on Lugers, done on batches of from 10-100, at random, to check the hardness of the barrel for consistancy and quality. So my theory is a hardness test on Lugers and a reject mark on P.38's.

11-19-2001, 07:48 AM	#1
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Opinions Wanted Hello All, I have posted this question on the "Sister" P.38 Forum and I thought it would be apprropriate to post here also since some of you may not visit the P.38 Forum. As most of you know, the "Asterisk" stamp shows up on a number of different weapons, bayonets, machine guns, etc. It seems to be most prevelent on the P.38 pistols, but it also is on the Luger. There has never been any documented answer to what this stamp really means. So far, they are theorys and some of them are very plausable and some are not. Orv Reichert, the well know P.38 expert, feels it is a stamp for a rejected part which was reworked and then passed the Waffenamt inspection. This is probably the most recognized explanation. What do you folks think this "Asterisk" means? These will be opinions only and it may make for a good discussion. I do have one Luger with this stamp on the barrel and Jan Still shows a photo in his book on Third Reich Lugers. I have one little theory that has been discussed in NAPCA a couple of years ago and I will give mine after others have posted theirs. I hope John Dunkle can answer this; was the "Asterisk" ever stamped on Kreighoff Lugers? Let's have some fun with these theorys and see what pops out of the woods with ideas. Marvin

11-19-2001, 12:41 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I think you have asked your question in the wrong place Marvin (LOL) : Because there are certainly no "strongly opinionated" people on this forum -regards, John PS- sorry I can't add anything to the speculation, as I have only heard the same stories that the others have already mentioned... I can't wait to hear your NEW theory! This should be a GREAT thread!

11-19-2001, 02:20 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Re: I think you have asked your question in the wrong place Marvin (LO Marvin, I would think that any hardness question would be taken care of by the proofs on the right side of the cannon. There is where the Germans indicated the tests for hardness. I would have to look it up but one of the three to five proof marks in this area is for hardness of the reciever...not the frame. If the Germans were to mark for hardness on every part there would be many more proofs than there are already. As with many American weapons the only part specifically hardned was the reciever.Just Idle speculation...Jerry

11-19-2001, 07:12 PM	#9
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted Bill, Very interesting about the Luger and P.38 having different meanings; i had never thought of this! Since I opened this "can of worms", let me ask you about the "Asterisk" being used on other weapons produced during this era. I have seen photos of it on a K98k bayonet, and a machinegun (MG-15 I think). I know this is a tough question, but I value your opinion. I realize this stamp is more prevelent on the P.38 for some reason, but not often seen on the Luger. I have seen the photos in Still's books, and the one I have is the only one I have ever actually seen. It is stamped on the barrel. If things don't get crazy at the plant tomorrow, I will post my "wild theory". marvin

11-19-2001, 08:03 PM	#10
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Refurbish mark? Possibly WW2's equivalent of the WW1 'rc' stamp for factory refurbish?

11-19-2001, 09:01 PM	#11
Tracy Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Opinions Wanted Marvin I have a third issue Zero Series Banner P38 with mismatched barrel approximately 300 numbers higher than the rest of the numbers on the gun. The barrel has the asterisk stamped right next to the serial number on the front of the barrel. The asteris was it appears used at the beginning of P38 production. Cannot give exact serial number as visitig son in Portlandf OR.

11-20-2001, 07:29 AM	#12
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Refurbish mark? Steve, I was hoping someone would come up with this opinion! I have wondered if it was a rework mark myself. If the Germans did this in WWI, why woulod this not be the case in WWII??? What do others think about this oipinion? Marvin

11-20-2001, 07:32 AM	#13
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted Tracy, Without checking in Buxton's book for a better answer, I think the asterisk was starting in mid/late 1943 and then became a more prevelent as the war progressed. They are still not real common, but not rare. Steve's opinion about a rework/rejection mark like the Crown/RC could be possibility, but again this is just an opinion. Marvin

11-20-2001, 10:59 AM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Re: Opinions Wanted Marvin, The Germans used a dot to indicate the rework of the holdopen added. This dot can be found on the right side of the frame.Mostly I have seen it on 1908's that did not originally have a hold open and when it was added the dot was placed to indicate it without opening up the pistol.I question why a barrell replacement would require such an indicator. Or any other part replaced for that matter. Serial numbers or the lack of would generally take care of that . Any other minor part would not need an indicator if it was processed thru the system and passed inspection. Jerry

11-20-2001, 11:24 AM	#15
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Opinions Wanted A dot? Isn't this where the frame was drilled and a pin inserted for the holdopen device?

11-20-2001, 12:42 PM	#16
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Hold open added Jerry, The "dot" that you see on PO8s that have had a later HO added, is the cross pin inserted in the frame to hold in the hold open. Just below this "dot" should be a crown over a letter, indicating the name of the inspector who checked this work.

11-20-2001, 05:55 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Re OOPS! Well like an idiot I always assumed it was an inspection mark but as you say it is for the pin. you learn something every day if your not carefull. Jerry

11-20-2001, 07:36 PM	#18
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Refurbish mark? Hi, I strongly disagree with a refurbish mark. If that was the case it would have a code 42 or S/42 to indicate a replacement, and possibly not a serial number. These barrels are all serial numbered, with a suffix, and I feel are the original issued barrel. They have been inspected or tested, and marked with the "*". These are new Lugers and they saw no refurbishing at this time. I would think the only thing this mark could mean was either as I stated before, a hardness test, or a out of tolerance mark, (like not being hard enough, or too fat a barrel) or a special issue mark -- (like special forces), or a mark of special issue (to Africa Corp). I still feel the mark means different things on different items and the hardness test seems the most logical to me at this time.

11-22-2001, 12:06 AM	#19
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Opinions Wanted " No, No, Not Hardness " In my Opinion the "" is unsuitable as a hardness test probe. Hardness testing is performed with a conical probe calibrated for depth of penetration as an indicator of relative hardness to preset standards. Usually Brinnel Scale. An object such as an "" , has no linear or other progressive penetration capability and would be impossible to calibrate. Sorry to burst this balloon but the answer is elsewhere ! Viggos Engineering Facts #1 ( ha ha ) My best judgement *** ViggoG

11-22-2001, 01:08 AM	#20
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	More thoughts: Hi Viggo, Hope you are feeling better and are having a speedy recovery. I agree that the "" is not a hardness test probe in itself. It very well could be a mark to show that the barrel was checked for hardness, consistancy, and tolerance. I do not have one of these "" marked Lugers now, but this mark could have been done before assembly was completed. The test probe mark could be hidden above the threads for instance, done before assembly of the barrel, with the "*" added to the right side of the barrel to show it had been checked. Actually, I have no idea where you would check the hardness of barrel-- so where would you? So Viggo, if not a hardness mark, and not a rejection mark, then what is your opinion of what it is?