Germans using M1911's?

Hi all. I'm hoping to pick a few brains about the practical history of the P-08. Do you think there were many cases of captured P-08/P-38's being used as a sidearm in combat by American troops (as opposed to being kept strictly for trophies)? Were there regulations against it? Was ammo too difficult to find to make it feasible, or was the M1911 just too good of a weapon for our boys to want to fight with a German pistol? Also, were captured M1911's used in combat by German troops? Also, if anyone has some photos of Germans with M1911's or Americans using P-08's, I love to see them and hear your thoughts! Thanks...

P.S. The photo below is from the National Archives. It shows a young Japanese soldier in a Wermacht uniform. I wonder if he used an Arisaka or K-98, Nambu or Luger! I'll bet there's quite a story behind this photo.




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[Johnny Peppers]

Norway adopted the 1911 Colt to be known as the Model 1912 caliber 11.43mm, and later changed it to Model 1914 caliber 11.25mm. When the Germans occupied Norway in mid 1940 they took over the Kongsberg factory where the pistols were manufactured and continued to produce pistols for use by the Germans. The German designation was Pistole 657(n). In 1945 the German waffenampt, WaA84, was applied to the pistols and are a scarce variation. I don't know if this answers the question of whether the Germans used the 1911, but indicates that they did use a version of the 1911.

I can tell you as a fact that there was extensive use of captured German pistols by US (and other Allies esp. Russian) soldiers. This was done both in and outside of regulations and policy which was enforced differently between units. Most US soldiers who carried German pistols were not authorized 1911's and therefore augmented their defense with captured German pistols. There were problems that are well documented with US troops armed with these an-authorized weapons on leave in Paris ..etc. I believe that most every shoulder holster that is made for a Luger, P38 etc. was made for US occupation troops. I have found very little evidence of Germans using 1911's but I'm sure it was done when they could get them. I don't believe that soldiers on either side were very aware or cared about which type pistol was "the best" the way that we do today. Many German pistols were carried in thier original holsters, modified for the web belt and some were stuck in 1911 holsters...many german holsters were "cut down" to serve as "fast draw" holsters for the GI's. It may be true that some GI's did not carry German pistols or equipment for fear of being punished/killed upon capture but this attitude was not pervasive and tended to be non-relavent after the Battle of the Bulge. There are many publihed photos of GI's wearing all types of German Equipment in combat and during the occupation. Several GI's I've talked to seemed to esp. like the Radom and High Power when they could get them...but I would guess that the Luger was the most prized souviner followed by the P38.

[Marvin]

Denny,


I don't know how much use the Germans made of using the GI .45 auto, but there are many photos of the Gemans using captured Russian equipment on that Front.


In Whittington's set of books on German Pistols and Holsters, he has listed the German alphabet/numberical designation for most of the pistols in use in the war years. The US .45 is listed as a weapon they could use. I have always wondered the same questions you have asked, but have not found any real anwers. On the Italian front, the Germans probably did not make much use of them because they were always on the defense and pulling back to different defensive positions so they may not have had much of an opportunity to capture very many. On the Western Front, they probably did not require very many captured weapons since they could always re-use their own from casualties in their ranks. Of course, this is all speculation on my part with them using US pistols. I have always wondered why they did not try to use the Garand more, but I have read that they did not feel the semi-auto fire was required. The German thinking of the time was to make a shot count, not to spray.


A very good question and I hope others will provide more information


Marvin

Great info. I've never heard of the P-657(n). As a soldier today, I know the current policies for captured/personal weapons. As a rifleman, I am not authorized to carry a captured or personal weapon (in case I might actually hit something). I am also not authorized a sidearm. Having served in a quasi-combat area (Bosnia, during the U.S. bailout of the UN Protection Force in the mid 90s), I know there were no exceptions made. Everything we confiscated from the locals was tagged, bagged and destroyed (usually by welding the receivers closed until they could be melted down). I wonder why these policies came into effect when all it took to bring home captued German ordnance was a signature from the unit commander. Any ideas?


P.S. The photo is from the National Archives. This is hardly an example of the the battle-hardened, evil SS men who gave the Luger such a sinister reputation.




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Luftwaffe General [Ace] Adolf Galland carried a 1911 all during WW-2


Hermann Goering alwlays carried a S&W model 10 in .38 Spl. This gun is now at the West Point Museum.


The most desired trophies of WW-2 were the Walther PP and PPK. [Along with German Binoculars and Leica Cameras.]


P38's sold for about $75 to the rear area troops [see UP FRONT by Bill Mauldin]

[Johnny Peppers]

I believe the soldier in the picture is Luftwaffe.

[Mikey]

Nein,

I believe he is a Soldat in the Wehrmacht, rank Schutze (private). The national eagle is used rather than the Luftwaffe eagle on his cap. His collar tabs also shows that he is NOT an NCO or officer...ditto on the shoulder straps. Can't tell the color of his waffenfarbe so you can't be sure what branch of the army he was with. Long story short, just a "grunt."

Mikey

[Dok]

just like ours.

[tom]

My father was a combat infantry officer in the ETO during WWII. He told me many, many times that GIs loved both Lugers and P-38s, but if the situation looked bad they would promply dispose of P-38s as being captured with one was thought to be an immediate death sentence. Seems the GIs thought that P-38s were exclusive to SS units while Lugers were throughout the Army.


FWIW

[Mikey]

Yup.....many wars are fought with the youngest of sons! Pity!

Mikey

Interesting comments. I agree with all except that the study of thousands of wartime photo clearly shows that the W-SS used more Lugers than any other 9mm, this appears to ahve been followed by the Browing HP, then the Radom and last by the P38. It is evident that more P38's did start showing up in the hands of the SS by 1944....but the Luger appears in about 75% of the photos of SS carried pistols. I have heard that the main reason for this is that the Army really wanted to standardize as much as possible on weapons and equipment. While this was never even remotely achieved, it would appear that the Army was more willing to allot the SS more of the Lugers (after about 1940) and foriegn HP's and Radoms. The SS on the other hand got more of these pistols per capita than they would have ended up with if they pressed the issue for the "new" P38's. It is true that by 43-44 the SS was given a more priority status by the OKW and this could explain why some of the SS Divisions stood up during that period are seen with SOME P38's. As for PP &PPk's being more desirable to GI's, I've never heard it before and that is certainly not the case with the many vets I've talked to about capturing pistols....most did not even know what the were. From the standpoint that they were generally carried by higher ranking officers I guess I could believe they would have been a "status" item to capture. As far as the change in US military policy toward weapons and material, it is simply PC in the military...this really started during Vietnam and is at the point today that they would not allow soldiers to bring weapons back to the US for fear of political pressure....the freedom we enjoyed 50 years ago is gone!

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

I believe the German is RA and not SS.


Lonnie

[Big Norm]

In the "Luger Book" by John Walter, pg 45 there is a picture of a British officer training with an arty and a Trommelmagazin. There may be more pictures in the book but I could not find them.

Big Norm

[Matt]

Color footage of the liberation of Paris filmed by George Stevens shows a G.I. toting an MP40 while under fire from German snipers.

That is a good example of one must be careful of what they think they see in a photo or film. I've seen that footage and while I cannot be positive, I believe that the MP 40 carrying soldier is actually a "Free French" soldier who had picked that gun up off the street (dead German). The allied French Forces were allowed to enter Paris first, they pretty much wore American uniforms, equipment..etc..Not that my comment shows anything one way or another as it is well documented that many US soldiers used captured German weapons on an occasional basis, but except for the pistols, not many were carried day in and day out.

My favorite uncle served in ETO under Patton. He had one story where he and one of his buddies got into a bar fight in Paris. This while on leave. The MPs relieved them of a PPK and a Mauser HSc. The MPs told them that they could pick up their weapons in the morning. Along with a fine[?] for

carrying "unauthorised weapons". Needless to say they never showed to pick up their German pistols.


My uncle also carried a P-38 in combat and really liked it. He preferred to 9mm to the .45 ACP in a handgun. He said that it was "comforting" to have in a foxhole at night.


He also said he gambled away 2 captured Browning pistols on the ship back from Europe. I have no idea what type they were.


He passed on 2 years ago next month. I think of him often and really miss him. Most people don't have a clue as to the sacrifices these guys made for us.

[Matt]

The photo caption on the previous page of my book states American, French regulars and resistance were involved in the action, so I guess it could have been either. This particular frame shows only soldiers in American uniforms, whereas one on the previous page shows two soldiers wearing French helmets. You brought up a point I hadn't thought of. I guess I'll have to watch the actual film again.

Thanks Matt, I could be wrong but in general many photos are incorrectly captioned and I have learned the hard way to really investigate what I think I see! Mace, you story is Classic! You thread wraps up what I have found to be the typical experience of the combat GI in regards to captured pistols. I will point out that the policy enforcement and procedures of handling captured weapons varied greatly between units (at all levels) and it is impossible to state a hard rule. Many, Many thousands of pistols made their way to the states without any paperwork. IMO Luger Collectors (which I am one) tend to be a very closed minded group when it comes to what is "right", "Collectable" etc.. this is a shame. For instance if one was collecting on a theme of "occupation" era captured material, a GI European nikel plated Luger or P 38 would be a great example to have. Everything must be examined in the context it is to represent.

My dad served in Nam in the mid 1960s and said that he knew of a couple of guys that lifted Hi-Powers from NVA soliders the "no longer needed them". He said these guys used them extensively. (dad carried an M-14, BTW) I guess these HPs were lifted from the Aussies, before their departure from Nam. He never mentioned this until I showed him one of my Hi-Powers on day and said "hell, son..lots of guys had those IN Country". Who knew!


This would go to stand that US soldiers that could not get an M1911 probably carried a P-08 or P-38 if they found it. I would...even though the Garand I'd be carrying is PLENTY of gun for most jobs.


I have seen several late war photos of German soldiers carrying M-3s, Carbines and Garands....why not a 1911?


The list of pistols used by the Nazis is dizzying...at best.


-SA