matching luger and holster date fact or fiction

[Jon]

gentleman, i am farely new to this forum and to lugers having recently purchase my first, a 1939 dated mauser with this fine pistol came a well used but presentable (for a 50 yr old )holster dated 1941. I know from the condition of the luger 93% + and the holster are not mates.

now the big question , matching luger and holster date fact or fiction??

1) as a general rule are they both supposed to match ?

2) or is this a fiction ?

Judging by the lugers purchased with orginal holsters by other posters of this forum how do the dates coincide.

If i go by the photos in third reich luger they match, or were they matched by the owners. the main answer i am seeking for is " am i correctly searching for a 1939 holster for my 1939 luger . please post a reply or email me. thank-you for all your advice and guidance .jon

[BILL]

Holsters were not matched to the pistol. The pistols were shipped in wooden crates from the armory and had nothing to do with the procurement of the holsters. If the soldier was issued a pistol some guy would go back and grab the closest holster he could find. There was no effort made to match the date on the holster to the pistol. The answer to your question is "fiction". The question might be reconstructed to ask "Is this holster correct for this Luger?". That can mean "correct" for the time period (i.e. During WWI no one was issued any nazi marked holsters since they didn't yet exist). A 1938,1939,1940,1941 holster could have been original equipment with a Luger from any of those years. The holsters all came from outside contracts. The manufacturer and the year could be different for two sequential serialized Lugers. I hope this helps answer your question.

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Jon; I for one would want the holster date to match that of the Luger.


Lonnie

So I would just try and buy one that is the same year, or years before. It appears to me that Lugers could have been issued to someone, in 1944 / 45 and with holsters from before then. But a captured 1915, would need a holster from that time period. But unless you know that the pistol was issued / reissued in 1944 and the holster is from 1938 (even tho the pistol is a 1934 / 1914 or whatever).


I am like Lonnie, given a choice, I would prefer one closest to the year manufactured.


Ed

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gentlemen,This is the case in general but one always needs to qualify what we are talking about. In the case of Police Pistols it is common to see the holster matched to the pistol by way of serial number. It would be an interesting study if some of our members with Police rigs could report on the year of matching rigs. Surely that would tell us something about this interesting and often brought up subject. I have one such matching rig and I will dig it out and let you know what I find. Jerry

[bill m]

hi jon,

I like to try and match the same date of holster to the gun. It makes it easier and less confusing to keep everything straight. From what I have observed and read, I think one year back or one year ahead is more realistic. I do not feel a 1939 dated Luger would be issued with a 1934, 1935, 1936, or 1937 dated holster. My opinion is that, as Bill stated, the Lugers were issued seperately in wooden crates, but the German's would not have a huge inventory held over. They had a very good estimate of what Luger production was going to be for each month and year, and put contracts out for only a certain amount of holsters. No doubt there was some overlap, but at 85,000 to 135,000 Lugers being produced in the later years, I feel they stayed fairly even in holsters to Lugers and did not have huge stockpiles of either. It is sure possible that some holster dated 1935 was not issued until 1941, but you'll have a hard time explaining it to most people. And, on that note, why do you seldom ever see a really, really nice 1934 or 1935 dated holster? Because they were issued early and saw more years of use.

[bill m]

Hi Jerry,

The Weimar Police Luger rigs are hard to date, as they have reworked holster of the Imperial era, and new holsters usually dated 1932, 1933, 1934, and 1935 which was probably the last date of rework as the matching rigs with these dates can have the matching serial number or the matching police property number.


The Mauser Banner police rigs that I have seen and have, have a date of one year ealier or the same year as the Luger. For some reason I have not observed a Banner with a matching numbered holster with the year one year later.

[BILL]

So, the original question was.."fact or fiction, should Lugers have matching date holsters or not?" (ok, that is paraphrased, but that is what I think is being asked). So far the answers are: 'I would want one that is matching', 'Not always', 'Maybe, but doesn't have to be', I am glad I am not the one trying to decipher the answers. I guess it depends on *exactly* what kind of Luger we are talking about here. I would prefer to use the term 'correct' holster vs. 'matching' holster (with an exception made for unit marked rigs that actually have matching serial numbers). A common military Luger would have had a holster with a date on it that might be a year or two off. As for value, since the 'rig' is being made up now, go for the exact year and grade and someone down the road might more easily believe that they 'match'.

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Jerry; I have a police rig with a l934 Robert Larsen sunburst L holster that came with a pistol with a P-08 frame(mint) an early proofed s/42 toggle, and a 1918 Erfurt receiver with a matched side marked schmeisser mag that is numbered to the receiver with the early police eagle on the bottom. A real put together!!


Lonnie

[Johnny Peppers]

The sad fact is that once the holster is swapped, no one from then on will know whether it is correct for the pistol or not. I tend to believe that the holster should pre-date the pistol rather than the other way around. The barrels of M1 Rifles were dated, and will normally pre-date the receiver by from one to three months. The barrels could be made up for use at any time, but as soon as a receiver was manufactured it was assembled into a rifle. I would have doubts that a 1939 Luger lay around for two years without being issued. Along the same lines, the most beautiful rig that I have ever seen is a 1938 S/42 that is all matching. The pistol is in a strong 99% condition with a 1938 dated holster in the same condition. This was bought by a friend from the veteran that brought it back. With all components being matching, it would indicate that the pistol was just as issued with a holster built during the same time frame.

I guess I look at it from the supply and military side of things. But I know that IF they have a new holster, it might be used with a new issued gun (in the military). No army supply sergeant is going to reissue you a holster just for the heck of it. Yes, I know that in war it is different, but people aren't worried about condition as a collector is, and yes as a soldier, I want the best that I can get, but if someones holster is messed up beyond repair (fubar), then they will grab whatever is available.


We would have soldiers leave the service, get killed, wounded and if they leave the unit for good, their gear would be turned in and reissued. This is where the older holsters is mixed in with newer holsters and I doubt anybody checked dates. Further, an officer in the army would sometimes have had to buy their pistol (from what I understand) and so their pistol might be in very good shape, but the holster is exposed and gets messed up. Then the officer would buy / aquire a new holster and have an older gun with a newer holster. Sergeants in certain positions would also have Lugers and this would happen, I am sure.


My 4 cents of pure speculation.


Ed

[Aaron]

The later in the war that the Luger was manufactured, the lesss likely it would spend any time lying around waiting to be issued. In the middle and later years of the war (1941 to 1945) newly manufactured weapons would be issued almost immediately to replace the high losses of older pistols. The same is true for holsters. Those made later in the war were also issued very quickly after manufacture. Therefore, it is more likely to find late Lugers with holsters very close in manufacturing dates, than to find an early rig that is closely dated. As an example, almost every 1941 or 1942 Luger is found with a 1941 holster.

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Aaron; a good point, and accurate.


Lonnie

[Jon]

ladies and gentleman, reading between the lines matching dated holsters and lugers are real , but some what uncommen if not rare. the ones that in Stills book Third Reich Lugers may or maynot be orginal as isssued with the luger in the photo .So since there was a world war on...any nazi issue holster of any date could necessarly be functionly correct. the holster that came with my luger is not and i will explain. i have one magazine and it dates to the time frame of the holster (1941 and not being numbered )black plastic base. i greatly appreciate your input. should i ask next whether black or brown is a correct color for the holsters?


many thanks jon

I have seen a few lugers in the "as brought back" holsters and the most valid conclusion is that holsters and lugers came together with no concern for date. That, of course, makes sense as there is no reason that supply personnel care about issue dates, only manufacture dates and sources for inventory and quality management purposes. I recently saw a 1936 rig including a 1936 dated holster and I have a 41byf in a dtu41 holster that came back that way. The demand for pistols was high and the supply of holsters appears to have been better than supply of pistols. The holsters wear out faster and so it is quite common to see early lugers in late date holsters. As regards police pistols, I often see WW1 era lugers in WW1 era or later holsters that are numbered to the gun. Both items probably lived apart till the 20s or 30s when the holster and pistol were mated for police use (when the police force was balooned in size to substitute for the military that was limited by the Versailles Treaty to 100K soldiers).


Many 1910-1916 lugers were issued in Reichsrevolver rework holsters that would date from pre-WW1 times (perhaps back to the 1880s).


Recently, a store of WW2 holsters (not for lugers) was found and the dates on the 7.65 holsters ranged from 1939 to 1944 (though some undated ones might be 1945 made). All were in new condition waiting for issue.


Luger holsters that went into stores first, say in 1939, may have been covered with later holsters only to be brought out when supplies dwindled in early 1945. Hence, you see some mint 1939 and 1918 holsters. I also see near mint 41 holsters fairly often I think because luger production was near an end, 41s were made in huge numbers, or these simply saw fewer war years to get used up.


Just some observations from guys I have talked to over the years.


dm

Matching dated holsters often occurred--the point though, is it is irrelevant. They matched the pistol date because they just happened to match the pistol date. It was purely accidental. Supply personnel in any army or company for that matter verify that an item is compliant with requirements and that it is not out-of-date. If acceptable, it is issued. There is no reason or rule in any military to further associate a specific holster with a specific date pistol. Only to see that the correct revision holster is issued with the associated type pistol.


As to color, some are brown and some are black. An early luger author stated that brown was luftwaffe and black other. This does not explain the issue quantities in each color or why the tradition of mixed brown and black holsters dates from 1915 or earlier (earliest black made holster I know is dated 1915).


I have even seen light tan luger holsters (one 1918 and one 1938).

[tom]

I have Navy Lugers with holsters that have property marks and serial numbers matching the guns they contain. I am not certain but I believe this was a Navy and Police only practice.

[Johnny Peppers]

We can speculate forever on how Lugers and their holsters came together, but a fact is that condition for condition a collector grade Luger in a hoster with the same date of manufacture is more desireable than a holster made two or three years later. A luger with one mismatched or un-numbered part may very well have been reissued that way, but it certainly cuts down on the collectibility.

[BILL]

Good point, Johnny, it is a "collector" thing to match the pistol up with a holster of the same date. Very similar to finding a "matching" sideplate so you will have an all matching pistol. Sadly, collectors desires and historians desires often interfere with each other.

I am unaware of any luger ever being upgraded in value because it had a same-date holster. If I buy a 1939 luger with a 1939 holster I don't recall any collector or seller ever thinking it was worth more than one with a 1942 holster. Where did this concept come from? In general, the only lugers ever mated to a specific holster were police lugers. If I suggested to one of the experienced luger collectors that a holster was "matched" to a luger and asked for a premium, I would be the joke of the show.