Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What?

Aaron · 11-07-2001, 04:42 PM

Just acquired what seems to be a strange "Black Widow," and I don't know what I really have. All matching numbers, including the firing pin. Toggle is dated 41, but has an incorrect code of S/42, which I understand was not used after 1940. Serial number is 3444t. The black plastic grips appear coarsely checkered compared to my byf 42 Black Widow, and there are no markings on the inside of the grips. Finish over most of the gun is outstanding, no wear on front or rear gripstraps, very slight muzzle wear, but blue is thin on the toggle and sideplate. Bore is strong, but shows effects of using corrosive ammo. WaA 655 markings with E/S on right side, E/S plus serial number on barrel with 883 bore size. Gun came with an absolutely mint black plastic bottomed FXO mag and an almost mint 1941 dated holster. There are no import marks. I can't figure out if this is some kind of Russian rebuild, or if it could be a wartime factory rebuild using the first toggle that came to hand. Or is it just a phony produced by some craftsman? Test fired it with some of my very mild reloads using a different mag so as not to mar the FXO, and it works flawlessly. See next photo for view of toggle.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Bw1.jpg

Aaron · 11-07-2001, 04:47 PM

Sorry, first photo was the toggle. This one is an overall view of the pistol:

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Bw.jpg

Johnny Peppers · 11-07-2001, 05:12 PM

Aaron,

The pistol appears to be a forced match, and also appears to be a refinish. Look inside the sideplate and see if there is a number 35 stamped inside.

Thor · 11-07-2001, 05:12 PM

There are some 41/S/42 Documented By Jan Still in TRL but those had a KU marking on the left receiver front!

Aaron · 11-07-2001, 05:41 PM

Inside the sideplate is stamped the following: 089988. The numbers are in a ragged line and some of the letters are weakly stamped, with parts missing.

Luke · 11-07-2001, 06:12 PM

Aaron,

My first Luger purchase, a byf-41, had a pair of black grips EXACTLY like the ones shown in your picture. After sending scans of the grips to several members of the Luger Forum, it is my understanding that these are East European repros. Oh how I wish they were really authentic WW-II German Black Widow grips; I had to buy a pair of authentic grips later for a pretty high price. I can send a scan of my repro grips directly to you by email if you are interested.

Luke

Lonnie Zimmerman · 11-07-2001, 07:52 PM

Out of sequence, but correct??

Lonnie

Johnny Peppers · 11-07-2001, 07:54 PM

Aaron,

Have absolutely no idea what those numbers are, but the number that I referred to would be very small. DWM and Mauser stamped the first two digits of the serial number inside the side plate, but starting around 1939 Mauser used a number one digit higher than the first two digits of the serial number.

Aaron · 11-07-2001, 08:04 PM

Well, it seems like the inside numbers on the sideplate are also not true to form. I am being told by one correspondent that the grips are postwar East German. I am now wishfully leaning toward the theory that it is a Mauser factory parts gun with out of sequence parts like the Ku examples in Still's book, but without the Ku. Pleasse keep the opinions and guesses coming.

Johnny Peppers · 11-07-2001, 08:12 PM

As the KU Lugers were made up from left over, rejected, or spare Mauser parts, the S/42 toggle would in no way indicate that it would be correct for an original 41 Mauser P08. The S/42 code had been dropped more than two years before this pistol was manufactured.

bill m · 11-07-2001, 08:23 PM

Hi,

This is not a factory Mauser parts gun, but a recent put together Luger. Originally had a byf 41 toggle on it. Probably has been refinished at some time too. You can not use the KU Lugers to compare this variation to at all, as this variation has the normal E/655 Army acceptance marks. You are correct in that assuming this is anything special is just wishful thinking.

Jay_123 · 11-07-2001, 10:28 PM

Dear Laa:

I found this web page and I wanted to knwo how to tell if I have a 41 Mauser P08. It was given to me today by an 87 y/o man who told me he took it from a German Lt. he took as a prisioner back in WWII the loger is solid black, it has 3 stams of an eagle with the german logo under it on the r side of the gun, it has two magizines with it.

Are there any tell sighns that would let you know just what model and the value of it?

I will pull it out and tell you more when I get it out. It also came with a leather holster and some sort of tool.

Jay/COnnecticut

Lonnie Zimmerman · 11-07-2001, 11:55 PM

Gentleman, check Still, trl, pages 92 thru 96 for pictures of out of sequence. This may not be one, but I don"t know how you can really tell. It seems like there were quite a few made.

Lonnie

bill m · 11-07-2001, 11:56 PM

Hi,

From your previous post, you have a byf 41 Luger. You did not give the serial number, which would always help when trying to figure out just what one has. The correct acceptance marks are E/135 E/135. These are late markings for a byf and usually in the no suffix, a, or b suffix of the serial range. They could have either wood or black plastic grips and either blank black plastic magazines or blank aluminium based magazines. The holster dated 1936 which would be too early for this Luger originally, and the tool should be marked either E/655 or E/135. What condition is the gun in? Sounds like a nice find.

Jay_123 · 11-08-2001, 12:09 AM

the serial # is 3852, black grips, it has three eagles on one side two of whitch have the number 136 under the eagle's claws. the other one is the german symble. there is another eagle with simble on the barrel.

the number 52 is stamped all over the guin on different parts. on the front of the trigger guard is "a" alpha stamped as well.

does that help any more? I am wondering what the value is in both a piece of history and money. I am not really looking to sell it, rather trace it back to the german owner, the LT who it was taken from. I can't help but feel a sence of death when I hold it. I wonder how many Americans or Jews this gun has killed. I currently have a H&K UPS .45 Compact, and love to competitively shoot IDPA, and don't have the same feeling I get when I look at this one.

Jay/Connecticut

bill m · 11-08-2001, 12:19 AM

Hi,

These out of sequence Lugers are mostly post 1945. You have no way of knowing if these guns were actually made this way, or repaired in the field, or put together sometime post 1945. Still's book has just given some people a way to try to market a Luger for more money than they could have gotten before. There are no doubt a lot of these in existance today, as most have been made up in the last few years. There should not be very many of these that are actually original as the KU Luger would have gotten most of the spare or left over parts. If the gun came directly from a vet and you knew the history of it over the years, then you might want to spend the extra cash to acquire one, but still, you do not know if it was actually made that way. A matching magazine means nothing as this was issued with the frame and receiver. I really do not feel most are original.

bill m · 11-08-2001, 12:23 AM

Hi,

Value depends on the condition of the blue, holster, magazines, and tool. Condition is everything when it comes to price.

11-08-2001, 09:05 AM

Luke et al, the course checkered black plastic grips shown of Aaron's 41 S/42 are Russian replacements. When reworking these captured Lugers, they almost alway left the original barrel, which as then marked by the importer, and they also had the original number dies for renumbering replacement parts such as toggle assemblies. If this barrel is not the original and not importer marked, I would bet that it's been changed since arriving in the US.

Aaron · 11-08-2001, 10:45 AM

The barrel is original to the gun and is properly numbered. It also has the bore diameter and E/S stamp. If it was replaced, the bore would be as new, but this one is only fair. There are no import marks anywhere. I have asked Ralph Shattuck for his opinion, and will post it here.

11-08-2001, 11:19 AM

I agree that the grips are Russian post WWII replacements (some are also made with verticle groves). I've never seen a true Russian rework that was renumbered, unless it was just etched, most just have mis-matched numbers scratched out. The East German were expertly re-numbered with correct dies. Don't put much stock in the absence of import marks. Many such lugers were bought in Germany by U.S. military personnel via "Rod and Gun Clubs" in the 80's and 90's and brought back....they never had import marks. The out of sequence is a difficult nut to crack as has been pointed and at any rate it is not related Ku assembly (which is also not very well documented as to really where and why it occured).

11-07-2001, 04:42 PM	#1
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Just acquired what seems to be a strange "Black Widow," and I don't know what I really have. All matching numbers, including the firing pin. Toggle is dated 41, but has an incorrect code of S/42, which I understand was not used after 1940. Serial number is 3444t. The black plastic grips appear coarsely checkered compared to my byf 42 Black Widow, and there are no markings on the inside of the grips. Finish over most of the gun is outstanding, no wear on front or rear gripstraps, very slight muzzle wear, but blue is thin on the toggle and sideplate. Bore is strong, but shows effects of using corrosive ammo. WaA 655 markings with E/S on right side, E/S plus serial number on barrel with 883 bore size. Gun came with an absolutely mint black plastic bottomed FXO mag and an almost mint 1941 dated holster. There are no import marks. I can't figure out if this is some kind of Russian rebuild, or if it could be a wartime factory rebuild using the first toggle that came to hand. Or is it just a phony produced by some craftsman? Test fired it with some of my very mild reloads using a different mag so as not to mar the FXO, and it works flawlessly. See next photo for view of toggle. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Bw1.jpg

11-07-2001, 04:47 PM	#2
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Photo #2 Sorry, first photo was the toggle. This one is an overall view of the pistol: http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Bw.jpg

11-07-2001, 05:12 PM	#3
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Photo #2 Aaron, The pistol appears to be a forced match, and also appears to be a refinish. Look inside the sideplate and see if there is a number 35 stamped inside.

11-07-2001, 05:12 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? There are some 41/S/42 Documented By Jan Still in TRL but those had a KU marking on the left receiver front!

11-07-2001, 05:41 PM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Inside the sideplate is stamped the following: 089988. The numbers are in a ragged line and some of the letters are weakly stamped, with parts missing.

11-07-2001, 06:12 PM	#6
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Aaron, My first Luger purchase, a byf-41, had a pair of black grips EXACTLY like the ones shown in your picture. After sending scans of the grips to several members of the Luger Forum, it is my understanding that these are East European repros. Oh how I wish they were really authentic WW-II German Black Widow grips; I had to buy a pair of authentic grips later for a pretty high price. I can send a scan of my repro grips directly to you by email if you are interested. Luke

11-07-2001, 07:52 PM	#7
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Photo #2 Out of sequence, but correct?? Lonnie

11-07-2001, 07:54 PM	#8
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Aaron, Have absolutely no idea what those numbers are, but the number that I referred to would be very small. DWM and Mauser stamped the first two digits of the serial number inside the side plate, but starting around 1939 Mauser used a number one digit higher than the first two digits of the serial number.

11-07-2001, 08:04 PM	#9
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Well, it seems like the inside numbers on the sideplate are also not true to form. I am being told by one correspondent that the grips are postwar East German. I am now wishfully leaning toward the theory that it is a Mauser factory parts gun with out of sequence parts like the Ku examples in Still's book, but without the Ku. Pleasse keep the opinions and guesses coming.

11-07-2001, 08:12 PM	#10
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? As the KU Lugers were made up from left over, rejected, or spare Mauser parts, the S/42 toggle would in no way indicate that it would be correct for an original 41 Mauser P08. The S/42 code had been dropped more than two years before this pistol was manufactured.

11-07-2001, 08:23 PM	#11
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wishful thinking is correct! Hi, This is not a factory Mauser parts gun, but a recent put together Luger. Originally had a byf 41 toggle on it. Probably has been refinished at some time too. You can not use the KU Lugers to compare this variation to at all, as this variation has the normal E/655 Army acceptance marks. You are correct in that assuming this is anything special is just wishful thinking.

11-07-2001, 10:28 PM	#12
Jay_123 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TX Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Dear Laa: I found this web page and I wanted to knwo how to tell if I have a 41 Mauser P08. It was given to me today by an 87 y/o man who told me he took it from a German Lt. he took as a prisioner back in WWII the loger is solid black, it has 3 stams of an eagle with the german logo under it on the r side of the gun, it has two magizines with it. Are there any tell sighns that would let you know just what model and the value of it? I will pull it out and tell you more when I get it out. It also came with a leather holster and some sort of tool. Jay/COnnecticut

11-07-2001, 11:55 PM	#13
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Gentleman, check Still, trl, pages 92 thru 96 for pictures of out of sequence. This may not be one, but I don"t know how you can really tell. It seems like there were quite a few made. Lonnie

11-07-2001, 11:56 PM	#14
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	byf 41 Hi, From your previous post, you have a byf 41 Luger. You did not give the serial number, which would always help when trying to figure out just what one has. The correct acceptance marks are E/135 E/135. These are late markings for a byf and usually in the no suffix, a, or b suffix of the serial range. They could have either wood or black plastic grips and either blank black plastic magazines or blank aluminium based magazines. The holster dated 1936 which would be too early for this Luger originally, and the tool should be marked either E/655 or E/135. What condition is the gun in? Sounds like a nice find.

11-08-2001, 12:09 AM	#15
Jay_123 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: TX Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: byf 41 the serial # is 3852, black grips, it has three eagles on one side two of whitch have the number 136 under the eagle's claws. the other one is the german symble. there is another eagle with simble on the barrel. the number 52 is stamped all over the guin on different parts. on the front of the trigger guard is "a" alpha stamped as well. does that help any more? I am wondering what the value is in both a piece of history and money. I am not really looking to sell it, rather trace it back to the german owner, the LT who it was taken from. I can't help but feel a sence of death when I hold it. I wonder how many Americans or Jews this gun has killed. I currently have a H&K UPS .45 Compact, and love to competitively shoot IDPA, and don't have the same feeling I get when I look at this one. Jay/Connecticut

11-08-2001, 12:19 AM	#16
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Hi, These out of sequence Lugers are mostly post 1945. You have no way of knowing if these guns were actually made this way, or repaired in the field, or put together sometime post 1945. Still's book has just given some people a way to try to market a Luger for more money than they could have gotten before. There are no doubt a lot of these in existance today, as most have been made up in the last few years. There should not be very many of these that are actually original as the KU Luger would have gotten most of the spare or left over parts. If the gun came directly from a vet and you knew the history of it over the years, then you might want to spend the extra cash to acquire one, but still, you do not know if it was actually made that way. A matching magazine means nothing as this was issued with the frame and receiver. I really do not feel most are original.

11-08-2001, 12:23 AM	#17
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: byf 41 Hi, Value depends on the condition of the blue, holster, magazines, and tool. Condition is everything when it comes to price.

11-08-2001, 09:05 AM	#18
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? Luke et al, the course checkered black plastic grips shown of Aaron's 41 S/42 are Russian replacements. When reworking these captured Lugers, they almost alway left the original barrel, which as then marked by the importer, and they also had the original number dies for renumbering replacement parts such as toggle assemblies. If this barrel is not the original and not importer marked, I would bet that it's been changed since arriving in the US.

11-08-2001, 10:45 AM	#19
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Re: Black Widow: Fake, Rework, or What? The barrel is original to the gun and is properly numbered. It also has the bore diameter and E/S stamp. If it was replaced, the bore would be as new, but this one is only fair. There are no import marks anywhere. I have asked Ralph Shattuck for his opinion, and will post it here.

11-08-2001, 11:19 AM	#20
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Some Considerations I agree that the grips are Russian post WWII replacements (some are also made with verticle groves). I've never seen a true Russian rework that was renumbered, unless it was just etched, most just have mis-matched numbers scratched out. The East German were expertly re-numbered with correct dies. Don't put much stock in the absence of import marks. Many such lugers were bought in Germany by U.S. military personnel via "Rod and Gun Clubs" in the 80's and 90's and brought back....they never had import marks. The out of sequence is a difficult nut to crack as has been pointed and at any rate it is not related Ku assembly (which is also not very well documented as to really where and why it occured).