How accurate are they

[William Reese]

Does anyone know how accurate a common imperial Luger (1914-1918) should be? I have a double dated 1917/1920 DWM that seems to be all over the target at 25 yd (probably me). while my 1916 DWM seems to able to hold a sub two inch group with some breaking each other, if I remain steady and patient. I consider myself to be a fair shot, even though I don't do matches. Any thoughts? By the way I just started this year collecting Lugers with my first one in March and second one last month. They are more fun than a barrel of monkeys. By the way thanks Thor for the picture!! William Reese

[Thor]

I would say 2&1/2-3&1/2" at 25 yds is the normal accuracy I see in my reworks, with an occasional one hitting the 1" mark and amazing me! ~Thor~

[William Reese]

Thor does that mean it actually grouped in at one inch? Fantastic!! I would like to put one on a mechanical fixture with recoil accumulator to take out all human interaction when fired and see what the target looks like after eight shots. And then try a broomhandle mauser, P-38 and Colt 45 auto and compare them. It would be an interesting experiment. William Reese

[Thor]

Well there abouts, I think John Dunkle and Hakan have had similar results? I do believe some of these guns are capable of it! Dok's Gun may be one of those with extensive testing! It had one of the best barrels I have ever seen. I have a double date like that I am fixing up to sell with an accompaning test target! It had a great barrel but alas, the frame was bad, I think it was a parts gun anyway and I got a frame from Tom Heller to match up with it! The other frame had pitting that went all the way through the frame.......bummmmm.........mmmmmmmmer!!!

I have a P.38, a Mauser, with a fnh marked barrel (a CZECH) barrel that shoots about as well, which is amazing for a P.38. ~Thor~

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

I have seen some old lugers with terrible barrels shoot as bad a new 1911 ( all over the target)

But i have also seen several guns shoot very accurately.


My personal competition luger shoots 1" groups bouth with jacketed and lead bullets at 25 meters.

My girlfriens (Anneli's) luger have the worst barrel i have seen but its shoots always within 2" at 25 meters with swedish hot submachinegun ammo.


Mechanical rests.

Those are never to be really trusted as they are fixating the frame in one direction while the upper with the barrel is playing around.

As long as the gun not is supertight or have the barrel and the frame jointed togehtr the mechanical rest is not 100%.

A good shooter can then obtain better results than a mechanical rest as the sights follows the barrel regardless where the frame is pointing.


Ammo

Both 9x19 and 7,65 para is extremely accurate if you have the right gun with the RIGHT ammo.

No gun shoot better than the ammo and generally will downloaded wimpy ammo in 9x19 shoot rather terrible.


Best Regards HÃ?Â¥kan


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Johnny Peppers]

Over the years I have owned more than a few Colt Government Models and have yet to own one that sprayed all over the target, but those that are not accurate enough for the owner can easily be modified by any decent pistolsmith to shoot 1" to 2" groups out of a Ransom rest at 50 yards. A box stock Colt Gold Cup will easily shoot 1/1.5" groups at 25 yards from the Ransom Rest with any decent ammo. Don't sell old John Brownings best effort short, as it is more popular today than ever, and more variations of it are made today than ever.

Amen to you brother. The 1911 in its raw form, without hours and dollars of reworking is still the most practical, accurate, useful, reliable firearm ever. The Luger is a fun novel gun to own and shoot but my auto=ordnance is what I grab in a pinch, for autos anyway.

[William Reese]

Danke everyone! I seem to be a better shot with my 1911 government (I'm a great John Moses Browning fan!)than my Broomhandle or lugers, my wife keeps teasing me when I try an hit a throughly perforated (with holes) 5 gallon bucket and she doesn't hear the familiar ding when hit while shooting my lugers. I'm going to have to take them all to the range with some targets and see what's going on. The broomhandle and lugers are much more fun to shoot, or maybe its the history. However, anyway you look at it I would hate to be on the receiving end of any of these at 25 yards or meters. Being a perfectionist (my Swedish ancestors showing through) and having a background in mechanical engineering I'm going to do some math on the looseness thing that Hakan referred to. I have the blueprints that Frank Rile has put out and will use worst case tolerances and see what angles I come up with, should be very interesting. Auf Wiedersehn! William Reese

[Thor]

Try the 45 against a Luger at 200yds, I think you will do better with the 9 at that range! Of course a pistol is a short range weapons, or maybe with one of those Artilery Sights. Kyrie used to tell me about hitting 55 gallon drums at 500 meters with one! Try that with a 45 acp! Hey, actually I like em too. My H&K USP Compact 45 usually gets the nod when I pack! But that is a nice German Weapon too! ~Thod~

[William Reese]

Let's see, where can I get a 55 gallon drum? Good comparsion, I'll try it Thor!! My next acquisition will be hopefully a artillery Luger (dream), big bucks for me though. Oh, by the way Thor your work looks terrific! I'll have to get in line one of these months. If anybody is interested here his a web site for Fritz Kreisler, a musician who spent four weeks in the trenches during WWI, http://raven.cc.ukans.edu/~libsite/wwi-www/Kreisler/Kreisler.htm. Very interesting personal account of trench fighting during WWI (cavalry charges, machine guns, artillery duels and all), no Luger, but still neat stuff! Auf Weidersehn, William Reese

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

My own 1911 shoots within a 1" but when i bought it it hardly hit the black on the target.

I have never seen a Gold cup shooting that good as you state, and I don't think all my customers would let me swithing teir barrels out if the gun shoot that good.


The 1911 is a very good targetpistol when rebuilt, but a Luger or a SIG P210 is is out of box.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Johnny Peppers]

Where do you buy Lugers in the box?

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

hahaha

That does seldom happends...that's for sure.

But I have done it a few times(but never the original boxes.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

Hi William,


Thank you for the link to that great story about Fritz Kreisler is terrific. I enjoy the classics and to read about such a profound soloist as Kreisler is only great, many thanx.......Schwob

[Steve]

I am not a vet but I find the talk of accuracy in a combat pistol interesting. As a non-combat experienced person it would seem that if it can reliably hit a 6 to 9 inch circle at 25 yards under poor conditions, it is up to the job. More important would be that it fire first time-every time.


Of course, when I go to the target range I want much better accuracy than that!

[ViggoG]

I cannot speak from experience , But My Father "A Volunteer with the A.E.F. 1917 - 1919", Carried the wound of a German Artillery In his right wrist until his death .

--

The range is Unknown but my father, was on patrol, and cut off behind enemy lines He was watching an open field for activity, from within a large shell hole and was shot through his right wrist and the stock on has 30-06 Rifle was broken by the same bullet.

--

It seams as though snipers were used to secure the rear areas and ordered to conferm all kills.

--

Turning around and sliding down into the shell hole he faced to the rear of his origilal position, Shure enough hardly had dad applied a tourniquet to his arm, and settled down with his 45 in his left hand, than a German Helmet slowly arose right in front of his Colt. His being a Machine Gun Mechanic he carried a 1911 Colt 45, "Thank God".

--

Nuf' said, Dad Came home the other poor soul did not . The German Trooper was armed with a long barreled pistol with a snaildrum and shoulder stock.

--

Dad used this German Weapon to capture Three German Soldiers and their First Leutenant. while making his way back to his Company. He The weapon was lost while he was in the hospital .

--

This is evidence enough for me to verify the accuracy of these long barreled 7.65 Lugers.


ViggoG

[William Reese]

Cool story ViggoG. One question I have is you stated that it was a 7.65 mm instead of 9 mm artillery Luger? William Reese

[ViggoG]

This was an assumption on my part as I have no knowlege of there having been any 9 mm Long barrels made for WW-1.

My Father merely stated that he took the weapon because he could not reload his 1911 Colt 45 magazine and the Luger had a full snail drum attached.

I dont know if the German Officer and his men would have surrendered to a wounded American with only a 45, But he said that they had a healthy respect for him and that snail drum luger.

I only assumed that it was a 7.65 mm.

ViggoG

[ViggoG]

Thanks for your correction I must seem stupid not to have known better.

Frankly this is the first time that I have looked at the caliber of the Long barrels.

It appears that most likely I was in error making that assumption.

I just now looked up the Arty's in my DWM E-Book and to my supprise they were shown to have most likely been 9 mm.

I'll have to look into this in more depth.

I accept Three Lashes with a wet Noodle.

Thanks for your pointed Question, One learns every day.

ViggoG

[Steve]

I have read from a few sources that the 7.62 did not feed well in the snaildrum. I have no first hand experience but have read this. On the subject of 7.62 artys, I just saw one today at a show that I had to pass on. It is a missmatched reblued 1916 Erfurt with a barrell that looked new. Maybe the barrell was a replacement but it would make a great shooter for $500.00. But since I am spending my money on a Mauser from Tom Heller, I can only hope it is at the next show!