C96 Persian Contract

[alvin]

Just noticed the 1st Persian that you posted from pre98.com. That one is probably OK. But from the picture, at least the bolt stop was refinished. It makes this otherwise good looking piece so unbalanced. It's a huge mistake to put this tiny part into melt mineral although the mineral itself is cheaply available on Brownells. People doing crazy things sometimes.

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[Edit] Not in hurry, valid 4x gun appears every other year. There are more Persian than Turkish. Turkish is a little bit crazy.... even the one in NRA Poor condition listed on gunbroker.com sold near $3000 a month ago. Turkish is probably 8x, or even 12x, or,,, God knows. I have seen more 6-shot and Carbines than Turkish. All of those have about 1000 production volume, the difference is survival rate. But if there is super nice Turkish going over $30K, and super poor Turkish going $3k, then, there are supposed to have more intermediate ones... no reason why this thing could only go to the extreme ends.

[Maestro]

i would appreciate clarification on the halo... image A is from your post, image B is one of the untouched mauser, and image C is of the reblued.
is the halo the red arrow in image B? or is this just a double stamp? cause honestly i can't see a halo in image A, unless i'm not looking in the right place.

[Maestro]

Excellent C96 database : http://www.g6csy.net/c96/database.html

[Maestro]

for completeness

Mausers of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire:
http://www.turkmauser.com/models.aspx

The Turkish Mauser Forum:
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...m#.UpwD5eJC9y4

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Maestro

is the halo the red arrow in image B? or is this just a double stamp? cause honestly i can't see a halo in image A, unless i'm not looking in the right place.

No. The arrow pointed area was a little bit overstamping. Not halo. Halo was minor discoloration around the edge of the stamp. Before you get comfortable on this, don't put serious $$ into any of those. There are people faking this type of appearance via micro sand blasting.

The Turkish posted was from Ralph M collection as well. The guy chased "completeness", obviously putting the priority of "completeness" in front of "original". He got quite a few rare items. All sold in March.

With Ralph M, Joe S, and Sturgess sold their collections, I am not sure the high tide of "C96 bulk selling" passed in this decade or not. Maybe not, there are many anonymous collectors... we will see in next few years.

[Sergio Natali]

It's beautiful, but I must agree with Alvin, and not doubt I prefer all my collectibles, C-96 included, in their original state.

[Douglas Jr.]

Sometimes specific models or variations are rare enough to allow a breach in the general rule "original finish only". If it is a decent job, I would have no problem to purchase a rare item refinished, as long as priced accordingly. But, it is always a very personal decision.

Douglas

[Sergio Natali]

Yes of course I agree with you; in fact I somehow swallowed my pride when I had the chance to buy a nice but "rebarreled" 1934 "K" P.08

[alvin]

One of E&P's greatest contribution to the community was this chart. C96 collector should burn this chart in mind. The only exception is Schnellfeuer. In production volume and survival rate, it's not tiny. But there is a legal transferable issue in the US, so gun is 2.5x, plus another 10x for fully transferable instance, it's probably a 12x item in the US. Situation in other countries in the world might be different. I don't know.

[Maestro]

what an awesome chart. thanks Alvin

[alvin]

I found a 2011 "Gun Digest Book of Modern Gun Value" in Barnes & Nobles. It interested me because one of the editors was Joe S. Probably C96 value data in that book came from him. There are a few other editors listed that I don't know, most likely experts in other domains.

He quoted Persian in "Exc" condition $2750. Since there is also a few reference photographs of sample C96 at the beginning of the book showing the definition of "Exc", "Very Good", "Good" and "Fair". My understanding his defintion of "Exc" roughly translates into 95%

Geez!! Persian in 95% only has $2750 book value. The one like I bought can be rated as "Very Good", then, it's a $2000 gun, and I paid what,,,, paid over $5000 on it. Should I laugh or should I cry?

Curiously, I looked back a few pages, into "L" section, what's the value of K date Luger..... Oh oh, who offered this data? K date Luger in "Exc" is $1500 in the book. Lord, feel much better most likely I am not alone paying "2.5 x book"

If I say they rated everything low, that's also not true. The 1902 Fat barrel was rated pretty high. "Exc" $9500, and "Very Good" $7500. No wonder usgunexchange.com refused to sell you his instance at $6500

[Maestro]

I just got my brand new 34th ed bb, & for the Persian contract Mauser Broomhandles gives $4,500 for 98%, $3,500 for 95% and $2,500 for 90%; add $1,000-$1,500 for matching shoulder stock. $2,000 for 80%!!

[alvin]

Looks like it's good data then. The only problem is that I cannot sell it at $3000 loss unless I am desperate. Supposedly, there is a $2000 Persian in similar shape waiting a buyer in future auctions. Patience will reward you.

I don't know who bought that $4k instance. At loss of $2k, his instance will also be out of supply for sure. But this is still not the worst case, who bought that $7500 instance from pre98.... even assume there was a little bit discount, I am sure it was not too far away from asking price. This type of difference definitely takes these guns out of market for decades.

Now, we understand why it's rarely seen.

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On the other hand, since market realized price is way higher than book, that should attract more old timers and their heirs to sell their instances. Turkish "Exc" $5000, ,,,, it should appear, a little bit higher than book is not unacceptable

[Sergio Natali]

I've not got any Persian, but I enclose a photo of my Schnellfeuer

[alvin]

I did not buy the book. In memory, a few popular pistols' in "Exc" shape (original, 95% or above):

Red 9, $1350
byf Luger, $800
DWM Military, $800
AE 1900, $3500
TE 1900, $5000
C96 Carbine, $15000
Bolo, $900
Conehammer, $2000

[alvin]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I've not got any Persian, but I enclose a photo of my Schnellfeuer

Great gun.

There was a true story on this type of gun in this book, very readable.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Long-March.../dp/0070544719

One soldier described to the author his first impression on Schnellfeuer in 1934. His troop captured 8 German made Schnellfeuers in a battle. He was shot by Schnellfeuer, lost an arm.

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Over here, it's possible to apply a special license to play selective-fire firearms, but need local police chief's approval. Semi-auto actually also needs his approval. So we pray no mad man commit anything, otherwise, we will be punished for other's behavior.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I've not got any Persian, but I enclose a photo of my Schnellfeuer

sweet all matching?

[Sergio Natali]

Yest, it's an all matching, first type.

[alvin]

In 1930s, Chiang Kai-shek bought many M1930 and M1932 for his elite troops. Rumor saying that was advised by his German military advisor, who happened to be a C96 enthusiast and strongly recommended Mauser. Even had rumor saying that was recommended by von Seeckt himself. The gun itself was a little bit outdated in 1930's context, but its special features of wood stock and selective firing, still made it attractive at that time.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by alvin

I did not buy the book. In memory, a few popular pistols' in "Exc" shape (original, 95% or above):

Red 9, $1350
byf Luger, $800
DWM Military, $800
AE 1900, $3500
TE 1900, $5000
C96 Carbine, $15000
Bolo, $900
Conehammer, $2000

C96 Carbine $15,000?!!!!!

This is an interesting informative website on Mauser C96 Carbines:
http://askmisterscience.com/1896maus...p/carbines.htm