1902 Carbine Stock Attachment Photos...

[Ron Wood]

Dean,
I have no accessories for my carbine. I feel fortunate just to have it! It has no modifications and is in excellent original condition. I have never fired it, and do not intend to.

[John Sabato]

No problem... I didn't consider your discussion off-topic because you were discussing creating a reproduction of this rare antique firearm...

If a discussion drifts too far out of scope of a particular forum, myself or one of the moderators would just move it to an appropriate forum for the discussion and leave a note where it could be found...

If you do create a reproduction carbine, please remember to post photographs of your progress and the finished product...

[Dean]

Ron, Your a better man than I with respect to not firing the carbine.

I checked with Orimar, "No can do" on the 16in. barrel request. They are busy getting the .45 together for introduction. Mr. Romo (correct spelling of name?) sounds like a very nice gentlemen on the phone. I hope his .45 is a big hit at the show. It will be interesting to see any reviews in the magazines. Can't wait to see what the trigger will look like.

The good news is that I've found a source that sells 9mm barrel blanks in stainless steel, 1 in 10 twist. I now have to see if I can configure my lathe for threading.

My lathe is a very old Atlas model with many gears that have to be manually setup. I'm going to practice on some scrap material to see what the results are like before I decide to do this myself or send it out.

I know this all sounds crazy, i.e, "This guy has never threaded on a lathe before, and now he's going to try to thread a barrel?"

But I'm actually very good with this machine and have been using it for many years. I've never really had the need to thread with it, as threaded bar stock is commonly availible.

If I have the original Orimar barrel in hand, and the machine is up to par,then I am confident I will be able to duplicate the threaded portion on the new blank. Besides, the barrel blank is 26 inches long. If I make a mistake, I can cut off that section and try again.

I'm not a lunatic, if I can't "get it" then I have enough sense to send the job out to someone who can do the job right.

But would'nt it be a surprize if it turned out easy?

Time to head over to Brownells and see what a 9mm chamber reamer costs.

[Edward Tinker]

Greeat discussion, thanks Ron and Dean and John!



Ed

[John Sabato]

I have posted the original blueprint of the barrel shank previously... just do a search for it... I am not in the office till late this afternoon so I can't link it for you...

Threading is fun, but you will definitely need to practice on some cylindrical stock before trying it on a barrel that you paid good money for... but you will be well pleased with the result once you get the hang of it. You will also have to grind yourself a special bit or two for the 55 degree Whitworth threads, but that is half the fun... I used to just take a 60 degree tool and cut it back 2.5 degrees on each side using my calibrated eyeball and never had a problem...

Good Luck.

[Dean]

Hi Rick, Saw your earlier post regarding barrel fabrication in another part of the forum. Very interesting.

Just a reminder, I am going for a 16 in barrel length. So this is not a true copy of the carbine.

Picked up signed FFl today. Gun should be here soon.

John, you mentioned trouble cycling a 16in barrel. Is a softer recoil spring an option?
How are others dealing with this?

I am now of the opinion that I should start with one of the pre-contoured barrel blanks.

Rick, Here is my first draft of the operation:

1) Install pre-contoured barrel blank (muzzle first) through the chuck, to the point where the chuck jaws can purchase on the flat portion of the breech end of the blank. This portion is about 2.5-3.0 inches depending on barrel manufacturer.

2) Machine breech end to rough outer dimensions of threaded area. The region of threaded area is purposefully made longer than required as the breech face will be trimmed later.

3) Reconfigure Atlas for 20 tpi threading Install properly ground threading tool.
Do some test threads on some scrap bar stock
to ensure tool is secured and aligned.

4) Cut threads on barrel. Feed towards chuck. Be fast on the feed switch to stop threads just short of the flange Threads are cut in several passes. As I get close, I test fit onto the Luger upper reciever. I want a tight fit.(fitment of threads is compared to original barrel at this point). Cut threads too deep? Barrel is trashed.

5) Reconfigure Atlas for machining. Trim breech face to proper profile. The length of the threaded portion is now very close to that of the original barrel.

Note: I'm making some educated guesses regarding the next few steps.

5) Study face of flange on original barrel. John's blueprint shows a compression backcut for normal ordinance steel (.1mm x.6mm). My barrel and action are stainless and this back cut may be different in this case, as the interference fit might be different for this material. Cut the face of the flange square.

6) Thread original barrel back onto the reciever, until the flage contacts the reciever Note the offset of the alignment marks. Also note position of extractor cut-out and feed reed ramp.

7) Thread new barrel onto reciever as above. Mark my new alignment mark at the same offset that the original barrel has. Index and mark extractor and feedramp cutouts.

8) Remove barrel, cut extracter and feed ramp
(method to be determined)

9) If required, the face of the flange can be trimed such that the new barrel "lines up" like the old barrel with regard to the alignment mark. Once this is correct, the proper back cut is made on the face of the flange. The breech face must also be cut so we have the same distance from the flange face to the breech face as the original barrel

10) Remove barrel and flip it around. Set up live center on tailstock. Cut and blend contour as desired. Belt sand, polish.

11) Cut muzzle of barrel to final length

12) Chamber Barrel. Mic distance from the breech face to the chamber ridge on original barrel. Cut chamber in new barrel with reamer, mic often to check distance of ridge as we progress with the reamer.

13) Install front and rear sights (method to be determined)

14) Install "accelerator" lug on bottom of barrel (method to be determined).

Install barrel:

1) Chill barrel in freezer. Heat upper reciever in oven (temperature to be determined, check metallurgy book).

2) With leather gloves, quickly mount barrel in chuck of vise (with clam shell halves).

3) Mount action in wrench, tighten until index marks align.

Sound good?

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello John S.,

Sorry for this delay...but thanks for posting the photos of the two variations in the 1902 carbine stock lug attaching irons. Looks like the 1st. variation did not have enough "bite" into the wood and may have proven fragile...thus the longer and more penetrating 2nd. variation...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Dean]

Rick, thanks for your insight. I will use care in regards to the headspacing. I was looking at the guages at Brownells.

Good news, I have all the gears to set up 20tpi. I opened the gear door on the lathe today and the gear data plate was unreadable.
Fortunatly, this fellows website has the "sacred scrolls" preserved:
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/t/...tlas_Lathe.htm

I have some thick brass stock to make the action wrench. I will probaly band saw this and file to shape and drill it for two cap head bolts & screws.

I was looking at Martz carbine #1 in "Luger Tips". Seems he took it easy in his first incarnation. He simply "stretched" the original profile of the luger barrel. The orignal rear Navy model sights were used. His forestock is different. There is no visible key through the stock. Also, the "schnaub" on the front is carved differently. It's not really like a 1902 carbine at all.

I believe on the 1902 carbine, the original rear sight is present on the rear of the gun but is not utilized. The front and rear sight on the barrel are set higher.

I think I can manage the rear sleeved sight.

The front sight is problematic. I can't solder to stainless. I want a light weight barrel, hence the barrel wall thickness will only be about 0.1" thick at the muzzle. I don't think this will be enough to mill a dove tail. Perhaps I should start with a thicker blank, and then contour the fat cylinder at the muzzle like the standard luger barrel. I could then dovetail a front ramp sight into this section.

Alternatively, I could make a pressed on sleeve that has the front sight and ramp attached to it.

Decisions....decisions...

[Dean]

Wow!, I just noticed the stainless carbine "previously posted" picture, It looks like whoever made that one used the "sleeve method" to mount the front sight.

I wonder if that is a stainless stock iron that they made themselves. It does not seem to have a latch.

Do we know who the forum member is that made this carbine? I would like to talk to them.

I sure hope they were able to checker the wooden bits. A luger without checkering just does'nt cut it for me.

[Dwight Gruber]

Here is the original discussion about the Stainless Carbine . And here is the second discussion .

--Dwight

[Dean]

I was thinking I could pin the accelerator lug. Drill two holes at a 45 degree angles through the lug (one towards the front and one towards the rear). The holes continue into the barral to a shallow depth. Pins are then driven in. This would be a permament fixment. Bottom threading tiny screw holes in stainless is a "Bad thing". I've broken too many tiny taps.

I believe the barrel wall thickness will be about .1725 at the point where the lug goes

[Ron Wood]

Unless you really want to add an accelerator, it really isn't needed with a new model coil mainspring. The accelerator helped the laminiated leaf spring of the old model get everything back into battery. You can accomplish the same thing in a new model with a stouter coil mainspring. That is how the 1920 carbine did away with the accelerator. Regardless, in either case a hotter round is required to cause that much reciprocating metal to function properly.

[Dean]

Thanks Ron, You just saved me alot of headache.

However, Ignoring the "return to battery" problem, If the mass of the new barrel is at issue would not a ligher recoil spring be in order?

I think the "return to battery" problem comes about because the weight of the barrel causes a torque on the frame rails, thus adding extra friction to the motion.

I can think of a few ways to deal with this. Good lubrication, hone the frame rails, smooth the action up.

It's might be possible to add a lightly spring loaded roller in the forearm to push up on the bottom of the barrel and ease the torque on the rails. Granted, we no longer have a "full floating" barrel, but if it means that we can now have a carbine that is able to shoot regular ammo without cycling issue then it might be worth the small loss in accuracy.

I believe the above items can be addressed after the carbine is completed. Only after test firing the gun will I be able to evaluate these issues. To play it safe, I will install Wollfe's heaviest recoil spring and, if required, move to a lighter spring.

[John Sabato]

I think the problem of barrel mass and recoil spring must be solved after assembly by experimenting with appropriate springs and honing the resistance to work with a specific cartridge load.

[Dean]

I've been looking over some of the BATF regulations, specifically, the following definition of a Short barreled rifle:

"Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by
alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

I guess what I want to ask is: If I install a 16 inch barrel on a modern Orimar frame, can I still have a detachable stock?

The reason I ask is that the previously posted stainless carbine pictured above displays no latch on it's stock iron. Is this stock non-detachable so as to ensure a minimum 26 inch overall length?

[Dean]

Nevermind, I found the answer here:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m25

"If a person has a pistol and an attachable
shoulder stock, does this constitute possession of an NFA firearm?"

"Yes, unless the barrel of the pistol is at least 16 inches in length (and the overall length of the firearm with stock attached is at least 26 inches). However, certain stocked handguns, such as original semiautomatic Mauser "Broomhandles" and Lugers, have been removed from the purview of the NFA as collectors' items. [27 CFR 179.11]

[Dean]

Status 10/21/03
Quick change gearbox and new back gears purchased for my old tired Atlas. They get installed next weekend.

Ordered catalog from CMR.

Ordered chamber reamer & headspace guages from Brownells.

[John Sabato]

That will certainly breathe new life into that old lathe... and maybe you too Dean

You can practice on pieces of old rifle barrel till you get it right...then slap a 16.25" piece of decent 9MM barrel between those centers and let the chips fly... <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> ...just rambling from an old gunsmith who wishes he hadn't sold his old lathe.... GOOD LUCK!

[Dean]

Status 11/07/03. New back gears are installed. Ebay purchased quick change gearbox needs some repairs. I am upset the seller did not mention the defects, but these units are hard to come by that I figure I can fix it faster than I could locate another.

[Dean]

Status 12/21/03:

The last few weekends were spent getting the lathe up to par.

Gearbox is now functional. I purchased a milling attachment for the lathe, as well as a "Deloris" style tool post (a China clone from Harbor Frieght). I had to mill the surface of the turret to allow clearance for the new toolpost to rotate.

I custom ground a carbide threading tool and I can now perform quality 20TPI threading on stainless barstock.

Using the milling attachment, I have begun shaping the action wrench blocks out of 1/2 brass. I think I'm ready to order the barrel very soon.

I have decided to follow the methods outlined in the book "The Modern Gunsmith" with regard to barrel machining. I will be turning the barrel "between centers" using carefully machined barrel plugs to ride on the centers of the lathe.

I have decided to solder the frame extension to the foward reciever & trigger guard. I have found an outfit that sells 416 stainless steel in various small sizes that I will use for the extension and for making the rear sight.

Pictures soon to follow...